Libido: hCG vs higher T / E2

[Mastodont]

...although it makes sense on paper.

We have certainly seen this to be a bad predictor of finding the holy grail of optimization.

 

[Jucaro]

Speaking of mixed esters: For about a year in 2019, my protocol was Testosterone Undecanoate (Reandron 1000mg/4ml, Nebido in the US), 150mg every 14 days, (75mg a week), and Testosterone Cypionate 25mg once a week, that's a total of 100mg a week and it worked great all round. One day I asked myself: Why not make it easier and just use Testosterone Undecanoate at 100mg per week? I made the switch and I no longer felt good...

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Speaking of mixed esters: For about a year in 2019, my protocol was Testosterone Undecanoate (Reandron 1000mg/4ml, Nebido in the US), 150mg every 14 days, (75mg a week), and Testosterone Cypionate 25mg once a week, that's a total of 100mg a week and it worked great all round. One day I asked myself: Why not make it easier and just use Testosterone Undecanoate at 100mg per week? I made the switch and I no longer felt good...

I would interpret this as another example of ultra stable levels not working very well.

 

[Mastodont]

Speaking of mixed esters: For about a year in 2019, my protocol was Testosterone Undecanoate (Reandron 1000mg/4ml, Nebido in the US), 150mg every 14 days, (75mg a week), and Testosterone Cypionate 25mg once a week, that's a total of 100mg a week and it worked great all round. One day I asked myself: Why not make it easier and just use Testosterone Undecanoate at 100mg per week? I made the switch and I no longer felt good...

So did you inject the cypionate at the same time with nebido on the first week? And did you use weekly injections when you went to the nebido only, asking because i am pretty convinced weekly injections are too frequent for undecanoate, even if they were to work, it would take very long to reach a steady state. If would have been a better experiment to just leave out the cypionate and up nebido to 200mg every two weeks.

 

[Jucaro]

So did you inject the cypionate at the same time with nebido on the first week? And did you use weekly injections when you went to the nebido only, asking because i am pretty convinced weekly injections are too frequent for undecanoate, even if they were to work, it would take very long to reach a steady state. If would have been a better experiment to just leave out the cypionate and up nebido to 200mg every two weeks.

When I went to nebido only, I used 0.8 ml (200 mg) every two weeks and I had been one year previouly with 0.6 every two weeks, with a previous frontload of 500 mg

I did not mix them in the same injection. I was splitting the Reandron (nebido) 0.6 ml (150 mg) every two weeks, the idea was to have a fairly stable basal testosterone level, then an aditional dose of testosterone cypionate once a week (25 mg) would make a weekly wave within a desired range to avoid the roller coaster. That worked very well for a year till I decided other experiments. During that time I never felt the need for aromatase inhibitors.
Once ended with HCG for fertility, I plan to return to that regimen, but at that moment I will probably try 50% of each, that is: 50 mg cypionate once a week, 100 mg undecanoate every two weeks
I have to say that only 75 mg of T cypionate once a week worked very well for me, with even more libido, I remember waking up in the middle of the night with erections and longing for sex. If I use 100 mg of cypionate, I feel the sides of E2, but not with 100 mg of mixture cypionate plus reandron

 

[Mastodont]

Ok, so you did not mix them in the same injection but you did inject on the same day, or would it have been something like injecting undecanoate on friday, then cypionate on tuesday and then again the next tuesday and then undecanoate on friday?
That is an interesting concept, combining the two, would be nice to even try them both on a weekly basis or perhaps weekly combined in the same injection, similar to daily enan/prop mix.

 

[Jucaro]

Ok, so you did not mix them in the same injection but you did inject on the same day, or would it have been something like injecting undecanoate on friday, then cypionate on tuesday and then again the next tuesday and then undecanoate on friday?
That is an interesting concept, combining the two, would be nice to even try them both on a weekly basis or perhaps weekly combined in the same injection, similar to daily enan/prop mix.

Never the same injection, but always the same day, sundays. I use shallow IM for both, in deltoids or thighs, almost painless or actually painless, never lumps, bruises or anything, so I prefer let them go separately.

 

[Jucaro]

Never the same injection, but always the same day, sundays. I use shallow IM for both, in deltoids or thighs, almost painless or actually painless, never lumps, bruises or anything, so I prefer let them go separately.

Or... it sounds nice once steady state of nebido is reached, mix both together and administer in a weekly basis... temptation...

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Or... it sounds nice once steady state of nebido is reached, mix both together and administer in a weekly basis... temptation...

It seems as though 75 mg of cypionate once weekly gave you the best results so far. Why not just return to that?

 

[Hyrulewarrior1978]

Yeah, I'm on daily cypionate injections right now and my libido is crap. I do get brief periods of libido that are better than baseline sometimes when I alter my protocol, which gives me hope. I tried to incorporate some propionate but I found the peak/crash from it too intense. I'm trying to choose between continuing to work with propionate at lower doses, try once weekly cypionate, or experiment with cream. I'm leaning towards once weekly cypionate because I have no hematocrit concerns and I'm worried that supra DHT on cream will cause increased hair loss and acne compared to cyp injections.

Would you think to try cataceous’ method? 4/3 c/p daily injections?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Would you think to try cataceous’ method? 4/3 c/p daily injections?

I would be willing to try something like that. I injected maybe 2.5 mg of test propionate the other day and proved to myself that tiny doses of propionate are tolerated well (even without adapting to it). I decided to try larger, less frequent injections of cypionate first though.

I think I did things in the wrong order by starting TRT on a niche protocol like daily microdosing. It's time to check out the basic weekly or twice weekly protocols that the vast majority of men are succeeding with before I decide that I'm a special snowflake.

 

[Jucaro]

It seems as though 75 mg of cypionate once weekly gave you the best results so far. Why not just return to that?

The idea is to have a minimum steady state level from which I will never drop and I will never have hypogonadal symptoms... that's with undecanoate. Then the bonus with cypionate is to have a range of variation throughout the week that makes me feel a stronger libido and erectil function that even alows me go free of tadaladil. If for any reason I miss or delay a dose of Cypionate, I will be fine anyway with good physical and mental health.

When I decided to quit Nebido, I stopped TRT for 3 months to cleanse my system, and for a while I thought I had my hpta back because it took me 2 months to really feel the real lack of testosterone, because I didn't have that strong libido but at least once or twice a week I was able to perform perfectly fine (cialis 5mg honestly).

75 cypionate gave me a very strong and crazy libido, but I prefer a basal garanteed level with a longer acting ester and play only with part of the dose as cypionate as needed

 

[Forty2]

What I get from HCG is putting my testicles to work, and certainly a better sense of well-being, but never better libido. It worsens my libido and even makes me need more tadalafil or sildenafil.
Also, having very stable levels of testosterone makes me feel mentally flat and low on libido. Having some fluctuations throughout the week (such as dosing only once a week) gives me a very good libido and, contrary to what could be expected, prevents me from high E2 levels, I think it's because as the time for the next injection approaches, my testosterone levels drop and there is less aromatization, giving my body a chance to cleanse itself of any E2 excess, whereas with non-fluctuating testosterone levels there is never a break... (may be that is the reason for the natural circadian rhythm)
My best protocol was 75mg TC once a week plus 260IU HCG twice a week. I have now been using higher doses of HCG for fertility and my libido and erectile function are quite affected...

When on testosterone once a week, when did you take your hCG?

 

[Jucaro]

When on testosterone once a week, when did you take your hCG?

SUNDAY MORNING: TESTOSTERONE + HCG
WEDNESDAY EVENING: HCG

 

[Mastodont]

SUNDAY MORNING: TESTOSTERONE + HCG
WEDNESDAY EVENING: HCG

What was your protocol now, still playing with both esters? Sustanon is also a mixture of slow and fast acting, albeit the decanoate is much faster than undecanoate.

 

[Jucaro]

What was your protocol now, still playing with both esters? Sustanon is also a mixture of slow and fast acting, albeit the decanoate is much faster than undecanoate.

I have never been able to go back to the protocols that worked for me. I got engaged in a new relationship and for over a year have been trying to regain fertility and have a baby, so I continue to use higher doses of HCG than what worked for me beore. I'm not giving up, but this has been a disaster for me: I've become completely dependent on PDE5 inhibitors, cialis doesn't work anymore, sildenfil I have to take 100mg, while on testosterone alone I used to only need 25mg or none. ..

My erectile dysfunction has gotten so bad with hcg that I've even been thinking about a penile implant...

As I am still oligospermic but have around 1 to 2 million/ml sperm but with good motility and morphology, my wife and I are planning to go on assisted reproduction (Artificial Insemination). Then I would go back to my old protocols that made me happy a while back, and see if I can get my good erectile function and libido back again...

 

[Mastodont]

I have never been able to go back to the protocols that worked for me. I got engaged in a new relationship and for over a year have been trying to regain fertility and have a baby, so I continue to use higher doses of HCG than what worked for me beore. I'm not giving up, but this has been a disaster for me: I've become completely dependent on PDE5 inhibitors, cialis doesn't work anymore, sildenfil I have to take 100mg, while on testosterone alone I used to only need 25mg or none. ..

My erectile dysfunction has gotten so bad with hcg that I've even been thinking about a penile implant...

As I am still oligospermic but have around 1 to 2 million/ml sperm but with good motility and morphology, my wife and I are planning to go on assisted reproduction (Artificial Insemination). Then I would go back to my old protocols that made me happy a while back, and see if I can get my good erectile function and libido back again...

Sorry to hear, do you have access to recombinant FSH 75-150iu 2-3 times per week, best injected with the hcg, half life similar, lot of people say it is a game changer to use that with hcg, not just for fertility but libido as well. Also maybe it would be wise to dial down the hcg since more is not better, and adding testosterone to the mix should do no harm for fertility, especially if you get FSH to go with hcg.

 

[Jucaro]

Sorry to hear, do you have access to recombinant FSH 75-150iu 2-3 times per week, best injected with the hcg, half life similar, lot of people say it is a game changer to use that with hcg, not just for fertility but libido as well. Also maybe it would be wise to dial down the hcg since more is not better, and adding testosterone to the mix should do no harm for fertility, especially if you get FSH to go with hcg.

I was using HMG with the Hcg for about 6 months, at the beginning I appeared to feel better, then libido came down to zero and ED got worse.
Hcg dose was 500 iu eod, hmg dose was 75 iu eod. Initially along with testosterone, then without testosterone. Sperm count rised only to 8 millions per ml.
Stopped hcg and hmg, started clomid 25 mg ed, for 4 months, LH and Fsh didn't get higher than 2, total testosterone came down to 200. Sperm count down to 1 million per ml. Semen volumen considerably decreased to 1 ml or less.
Now came back to HCG 1000 IU every 4 days (feel better and testicles are bigger that way than with 500 iu eod). Now on testosterone again, only 65 mg a week. Slowly recovering, libido and resoponse to sildenafil are satisfactory now.
Planning to add rFSH (brand name ovaleap) @ 75 iu eod and if pregnancy doesn't occur, go to insemination.
I think HMG made me feel worse because it also has HCG.
I have the sensation that even if LH and FSH does not rise significantly with clomid, it makes a good combination with HCG, perhaph blocking estrogen receptors at testicles level and modulating the HCG action. I say that because I took both together for a short period and was much better than HCG alone. Planning to add clomid again now (plus rFSH).