I think I crashed my E2. Thoughts?

[Superman]

So I have been on my protocol for a while now consisting of injections twice per week. Sunday mornings and Wed nights. 60mg Cyp and 250IU's HCG per injection along with .25 of anastrozole. All SubQ.

About a month ago after watching Nelson's video I started injecting the Cyp in my delt.

presently I feel kind of crappy. Started to feel it maybe 7-10 days ago. Sex drive is completely gone. Mood is crappy. Just an overall drop in quality of life.


So anyway, I suspect that I no longer need the anastrozole with this injection method. If that is the case that that is great news for me. I have always hated taking that pill and what it does to me. I had Defy send me a lab req that I plan to do Wednesday morning.

In the meantime I just have tomorrows injections/anastrozole before that lab draw so I am gonna stick with it just because I don't want to skew those labs but come Wednesday night I don't think I am going to take the anastrozole going forward.


Thoughts?

 

[Jackie Treehorn]

So I have been on my protocol for a while now consisting of injections twice per week. Sunday mornings and Wed nights. 60mg Cyp and 250IU's HCG per injection along with .25 of anastrozole. All SubQ.

What were you basing that initial .25mg dose of anastrozole on...previous lab work indicating high E2, or actual symptoms?

 

[CoastWatcher]

Decisions about anastrozole should be made on the basis of symptoms and lab tests. As Jackie asked, how were you feeling and what were your lab values when the AI was prescribed? As for what's going on now, it is all speculation without lab work. Good luck.

 

[ERO]

.25 mg anastrozole twice a week doesn't sound like a lot, but that is a pretty stiff dose unless you are super sensitive to E2. Its only speculation without labs, but I think you are on the right track with your assumption.

 

[Superman]

What were you basing that initial .25mg dose of anastrozole on...previous lab work indicating high E2, or actual symptoms?

it was based on my protocol set years ago by a lowtestosterone.com doctor via labs and how i was feeling.(defy has since made minor tweaks but the anastrozole dosage stayed the same) Long story short, shortly after starting with lowtestosterone i felt amazing for all of a couple of weeks then it all went to hell. I had to beg them to do more labs but they refused so I went and got labs myself. Those labs ultimately showed my E2 skyrocketed from mid 20's to near 90. that's when the anastrozole was added. I think the initial dosage was .5mg 2x per week(which tanked my E2) but after some tweaking we ended up at the .25mg 2x per week.



fast forward a few years to now and after some research I made the choice to try the injections in the delt as opposed to subq to see how I would feel and this is the end result. There are a couple of reasons I made this switch. The big one is I hate needles, especially long ones. So knowing that I can inject into muscle with the same size needle that i was injecting into my stomach is huge. The other is I lost a significant amount of weight and know that can have an effect on this as well.



As I mentioned in the OP i am having labs taken Wed morning so I am about a week from seeing my lab results and likely a month from a doctor visit. What I do know is that just changing from subq to shallow IM has changed me drastically. I expected some but not as much as this. I normally wouldn't make this thread but i was super curious if anyone had a similar response

 

[HoustonTX]

I agree. .25mg of anastrozole twice a week had my e2 low sometimes at 100mg of cyp every 3.5 days. I'd go to 20 or slightly below, but that was on the regular estradiol essay. Either way, I'd lose sensitivity

 

[HoustonTX]

I've personally found that small changes can have a huge effect. But, I think everyone will agree that it takes your body 6 weeks minimum to fully stabilize to even the smallest tweak

 

[CoastWatcher]

I've personally found that small changes can have a huge effect. But, I think everyone will agree that it takes your body 6 weeks minimum to fully stabilize to even the smallest tweak

Four weeks is the absolute minimum, Dr. Saya has posted here that he will test at five, and my own doctor favours six weeks. Patience is the key.

 

[Superman]

thread update if anyone cares.

labs always taken Wednesday mornings between 7-8am.


my labs from 11 days ago:

total 1256 (348 - 1197)
free 20.1 (8.7 - 25.1)
E2 37.7 (8.0 - 35.0)

SHBG 38.4 (16.5 - 55.9) first time having SHBG checked.



for comparison from November:

total 887 (348 - 1197)
free 23.6 (8.7 - 25.1)
E2 43.9 (8.0 - 35.0)

DHEA 335.1 (102.6 - 416.3)


Last July (only difference in protocol is I was on 75mg of TCyp 2x per week instead of the current 60mg 2x)

total 1211 (348 - 1197)
free 39.6 (8.7 - 25.1)
E2 29.3 (8.0 - 35.0)


So my assumption that I completely crashed my E2 was incorrect. It is low if using the 14-20:1 ratio that is often discussed on this forum but is considered high at LabCorp. I have had a constant drop in Free T over the last 9 months.


My Dr visit isn't for a few weeks but def curious why the drop in Free T. Also been following Dr Saya's thread on HCG dosages so going to ask him about that was well at said visit.

 

[ERO]

Your E2 is low as you suspected. Not crashed, but pretty low when compared to your Total T and low enough to cause loss of libido in a lot of guys. Your Free T drop could be due to your SHBG going higher - but we don't have a "before" reading to compare so that is only speculation.

 

[HoustonTX]

Does SHBG change? I thought it was a pretty static number that you're stuck with...not something you van change. Have to admit I don know much about Shbg

 

[John O'Connor]

Can someone post a link explaining the 14-20:1 ratios.

I can't wait to explain to my doctor that E2 37.7 (8.0 - 35.0) is actually low in relation to Total T.

Medical school never prepared him (2nd year resident) for these conversations. LOL

 

[ERO]

Conceptually, it is pretty simple. Here is a logic example: What if we said that any man that weighs over 200 lbs is obese? Of course you would laugh at that and say, "Well, we don't know how tall or short he is, or what percent body fat he has, so the assertion that if he weighs over 200 lbs he is obese has a huge logic problem."

Well, we are basically doing the same thing when we say that any man that has an E2 level over (Insert lab # here) is too high without also looking at his Total T levels.

The idea is that young, healthy men have a T:E: ratio between 14 and 20, so for guys on TRT, ideally, we want their T:E ratio to fall into that same range.

Now this is a guideline and there are always exceptions, but buy and large its pretty simple math and it makes logical sense. The best doctors use this and the static E2 number together to make recommendations and keep their guys feeling at their best.

 

[John O'Connor]

Thanks ERO! So much to learn. This site is amazing.

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

Let's also keep in mind, fellas, that the T:E ratio, as ERO stated, should only be used as a "common sense" variable...in the sense that I hope most can logically agree (and I have stated several times here) that an E2 level >35 pg/mL on the sensitive E2 assay is NEVER a low estradiol reading for a male regardless of the concurrent T levels. In other words, the relationship with the T:E ratio cannot be viewed concretely, but more abstractly, and it is not linear in the sense that it loses some degree of validity as T levels get to the extremes.

To the other question regarding SHBG, yes levels can and do change, most notably due to changes in insulin sensitivity, thyroid function, and indeed E2 levels as well. Many variables.

Superman - some interesting stuff to talk about during consult!

 

[PAUL-E]

Another thing to consider is your body fat% in general the higher BF% the more you will aromatize converting your testosterone into estrogen so if you have lost a good amount of BF and keep your AI dose the same in between labs you could potentially crash your E2 that way.

 

[Superman]

Another thing to consider is your body fat% in general the higher BF% the more you will aromatize converting your testosterone into estrogen so if you have lost a good amount of BF and keep your AI dose the same in between labs you could potentially crash your E2 that way.

looking back at my weight history for the last year(i track my food, exercise, and weight and myfitnesspal) it looks like i was around 210 lbs for my july labs, 190 lbs for my november labs, and 185 for my most recent labs. I assume that factors in a little as well as there is a 25 pound gap from last summer to now. Plus i just joined a gym at the end of january and have been going a few times a week.

 

[GA8314]

The first week after dropping from 0.5mg Anastrozole to 0.25 mg biweekly I noticed some water retention in my face. Not much beyond that. I lowered it because I lowered my T dose a bit. I'm keeping things as is for another 4 weeks or so and will then get labs.

My prior regimen had my Sensitive E2 at 29 but I'm new to this and don't have loads of labs to compare to. I'll get more as time goes on for sure.