Copy of article that says not to take an ai if you're taking HCG and have high estrogen.
Would love to hear from anyone in this boat, and thoughts in general.
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HCG and Estradiol[FONT="]HCG Monotherapy has proven to be a very popular method of treating low testosterone on The Peak Testosterone Forum and, as of this writing 11 out of 104 (10.6%) men polled were using this protocol. [1] Many men consider it be a more natural solution, since it keeps the testes functioning (and often preserves fertility). You can read more about it here: Treating Hypogonadism with HCG Monotherapy.
But now let's jump to one of the big problems that I see with HCG Monotherapy: estradiol management. HCG Monotherapy tends to not have the "wow effect" of standard HRT and I would guess that one of the reasons is actually not on the testosterone side of the equation, but rather the estradiol. In fact, I would sum up the difficulties with two simple observations:
a) Elevated Estradiol. HCG Monotherapy seems to artificially boost estradiol above the levels that you would see with standard HRT for the equivalent testosterone. Let me give you an example from the Forum:
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[FONT="]Starry Hi guys - Would appreciate thoughts on my bloods. From Dec 2-Jan 2, i took 1,500 IU HCG mono 3X a week. Had my blood drawn Jan 2. Then i went down to 500 IU 3X a week, through today. I had been on clomid prior, which raised my T from around 220/250 to around low 500s. But my free T never got above "low/out of range." went to my urologist today and here are the results, as it reads on the printout he gave me:
Total testosterone: 874 ng/dl (300-1000)
Free testosterone: 1.32 ng/dL (0.95-4.30)
SHBG: 32 nmol/L (10-50)
Estradiol: 74.4 pg/ml (20.0-75.0)
Notice that his testosterone levels are pretty high but well below the the max. However, his estradiol is through the roof. Rarely do you see a man on standard HRT with this high of estradiol. In the case of testosterone cypionate injections, for example, some of the guys are peaking right at 1200 ng/dl and yet their estradiol is generally more in the 40's and 50's.
This is an example as to what is so common with HCG Monotherapy: estradiol levels that are 50+% over where one would expect the man to be on a typical topical or injectible testosterone.
2. Activated Aromatase. So why is estradiol often higher with HCG? The reason for this is likely one presented in an older study dating back to 1979"
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[FONT="]"The data presented in this report unequivocally demonstrate that Leydig cells from mature rats have the capacity to aromatize testosterone to estradiol. Furthermore, hCG acutely stimulates aromatization in purified Leydig cells. HCG stimulation of estradiol production from testosterone was demonstrated with saturating concentrations of testosterone. This observation indicates that the effect of hCG is on stimulation of the aromatase enzyme(s) and is not due to increased production of testosterone, the substrate for aromatase." [4]
Basically, HCG will to tend to maximize the activity of aromatase itself, which is the enzyme that converts testosterone to estradiol.
3. Lowered Testosterone. Many men who go on HCG Monotherapy do so, because they feel it is a more natural way to go. HCG bypasses the pituitary but does directly stimulate the testes and thus, for men who are not primary hypogonadal, keeps the testes naturally activated. For this reason men who see their estradiol skyrocketing due to #1 and #2 will not want to go on Arimidex or any other pharmaceutical to lower their estradiol After all, they went on HCG to mimic the body's own LH (leutinizing hormone) production, so why throw in a synthetic drug into the mix?
However, what this means is that, in order to keep estradiol at a reasonable level, the HCG dosage and testosterone levels, have to lowered. This may leave their testosterone below the threshold needed to do things like bring back their morning erections, increase libido and vanquish mental fog and depression. NOTE: That said, Arimidex usage is quite common with HCG Monotherapy, and I have seen a number of men taking .25 mg three times per week for example.
CAUTION: Your Can Still Crash Your Estradiol with Aromtase Inhibitors. One other thing that I have seen is that aromatase inhibitors, such as Arimidex (anastrozole), just don't work very well. One of our forum members posted the following reason:
"Beware of AIs with HCG. I have read that they are largely ineffective with HCG because the aromatization takes place inside the testicles as opposed to in other tissues with exogenous (injected) T. The AI is out numbered in the testicles because of high concentration of aromatization, and so it crashes your serum E2 while doing nothing for your E2 symptoms. This is consistent with my AI experience where even 0.25 every week would crash me in 2-3 weeks, despite a huge amount of HCG."
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Would love to hear from anyone in this boat, and thoughts in general.
"
HCG and Estradiol[FONT="]HCG Monotherapy has proven to be a very popular method of treating low testosterone on The Peak Testosterone Forum and, as of this writing 11 out of 104 (10.6%) men polled were using this protocol. [1] Many men consider it be a more natural solution, since it keeps the testes functioning (and often preserves fertility). You can read more about it here: Treating Hypogonadism with HCG Monotherapy.
But now let's jump to one of the big problems that I see with HCG Monotherapy: estradiol management. HCG Monotherapy tends to not have the "wow effect" of standard HRT and I would guess that one of the reasons is actually not on the testosterone side of the equation, but rather the estradiol. In fact, I would sum up the difficulties with two simple observations:
a) Elevated Estradiol. HCG Monotherapy seems to artificially boost estradiol above the levels that you would see with standard HRT for the equivalent testosterone. Let me give you an example from the Forum:
[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Starry Hi guys - Would appreciate thoughts on my bloods. From Dec 2-Jan 2, i took 1,500 IU HCG mono 3X a week. Had my blood drawn Jan 2. Then i went down to 500 IU 3X a week, through today. I had been on clomid prior, which raised my T from around 220/250 to around low 500s. But my free T never got above "low/out of range." went to my urologist today and here are the results, as it reads on the printout he gave me:
Total testosterone: 874 ng/dl (300-1000)
Free testosterone: 1.32 ng/dL (0.95-4.30)
SHBG: 32 nmol/L (10-50)
Estradiol: 74.4 pg/ml (20.0-75.0)
Notice that his testosterone levels are pretty high but well below the the max. However, his estradiol is through the roof. Rarely do you see a man on standard HRT with this high of estradiol. In the case of testosterone cypionate injections, for example, some of the guys are peaking right at 1200 ng/dl and yet their estradiol is generally more in the 40's and 50's.
This is an example as to what is so common with HCG Monotherapy: estradiol levels that are 50+% over where one would expect the man to be on a typical topical or injectible testosterone.
2. Activated Aromatase. So why is estradiol often higher with HCG? The reason for this is likely one presented in an older study dating back to 1979"
[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]"The data presented in this report unequivocally demonstrate that Leydig cells from mature rats have the capacity to aromatize testosterone to estradiol. Furthermore, hCG acutely stimulates aromatization in purified Leydig cells. HCG stimulation of estradiol production from testosterone was demonstrated with saturating concentrations of testosterone. This observation indicates that the effect of hCG is on stimulation of the aromatase enzyme(s) and is not due to increased production of testosterone, the substrate for aromatase." [4]
Basically, HCG will to tend to maximize the activity of aromatase itself, which is the enzyme that converts testosterone to estradiol.
3. Lowered Testosterone. Many men who go on HCG Monotherapy do so, because they feel it is a more natural way to go. HCG bypasses the pituitary but does directly stimulate the testes and thus, for men who are not primary hypogonadal, keeps the testes naturally activated. For this reason men who see their estradiol skyrocketing due to #1 and #2 will not want to go on Arimidex or any other pharmaceutical to lower their estradiol After all, they went on HCG to mimic the body's own LH (leutinizing hormone) production, so why throw in a synthetic drug into the mix?
However, what this means is that, in order to keep estradiol at a reasonable level, the HCG dosage and testosterone levels, have to lowered. This may leave their testosterone below the threshold needed to do things like bring back their morning erections, increase libido and vanquish mental fog and depression. NOTE: That said, Arimidex usage is quite common with HCG Monotherapy, and I have seen a number of men taking .25 mg three times per week for example.
CAUTION: Your Can Still Crash Your Estradiol with Aromtase Inhibitors. One other thing that I have seen is that aromatase inhibitors, such as Arimidex (anastrozole), just don't work very well. One of our forum members posted the following reason:
"Beware of AIs with HCG. I have read that they are largely ineffective with HCG because the aromatization takes place inside the testicles as opposed to in other tissues with exogenous (injected) T. The AI is out numbered in the testicles because of high concentration of aromatization, and so it crashes your serum E2 while doing nothing for your E2 symptoms. This is consistent with my AI experience where even 0.25 every week would crash me in 2-3 weeks, despite a huge amount of HCG."
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