First post. Can’t get E2 under control, starting to worry

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FunkOdyssey

Seeker of Wisdom
That's what makes you a lot smarter than Cataceous. Taking thyroid, and raising thyroid levels in a person with sub clinical hypothyroidism or hypothyroidism itself, is not the same in anyway, as a person with true hyperthyroidism. In other words, taking thyroid does not cause the same medical sequela as a person with true hyperthyroidism. And hyper thyroidism there is an auto immune component, and that's what does the damage. So once again, an example of why cat, TaciousAnd hyper thyroidism there is an auto immune component, and that's what does the damage. So once again, an example of why cataceous should not be giving advice. He also doesn't understand the difference between a baseline observation and an interventional study.
We have the studies showing that lower thyroid function is associated with greater longevity, but you are understandably skeptical, because disease states that produce higher thyroid hormone levels may cause damage independently from thyroid hormone itself.

It may be useful then to consider experimental models in animals to demonstrate the effects of higher levels of thyroid hormones in otherwise healthy animals. From the attached paper:

THs are known to accelerate basal metabolism and increase oxygen consumption, thus leading to increased reactive oxygen species (ROS) production and oxidative stress 22,23. Additionally, THs are able to unsaturate membrane phospholipids, leading to membrane damage and mitochondria lipid peroxidation 24,25. Such pro-oxidant effects are tissue-dependent, with liver and heart more subject to oxidative stress than spleen and glycolytic muscle fibers 26. However, THs can also affect the cell antioxidant status, directly (iodine compounds act as free radical scavengers able to reduce oxidative damage in vitro) 27,28 or indirectly, by stimulating or inhibiting the activity of antioxidant enzymes 29,30 and free radical scavengers 31. Such an ambivalence in producing and counteracting oxidative stress has lead to controversial results about pro-oxidant or anti-oxidant activity by THs 31-38.

Recently, it has been demonstrated that binding of triiodothyronine (T3) to thyroid hormone receptor B (THRB) induces DNA damage and cell senescence. The mechanism of such a THRB mediated disruption of cell homeostasis is related to the activation of ataxia telangiectasia mutated (ATM)/adenosine monophosphate–activated protein kinase (PRKAA) signal transduction and nuclear respiratory factor 1 (NRF1), with consequent stimulation of mitochondrial respiration, increased production of ROS, and DNA damage ultimately leading to premature cell senescence 39. Studies in animal models seem to confirm this view. Indeed, several mice models of longevity, either naturally long-living or manipulated and genetic mutant strains, share some commons traits, among which low levels of THs. The naked mole rat (NMR), the longest-living rodent, shows very low levels of thyroxine (0.004 ± 0.001 mg/dl) 40. Moreover, it has been also shown that experimental hypothyroidism increased the lifespan of Wistar rats up to 28 months, while experimental hyperthyroidism reduced lifespan 41. Hypothyroidism was found associated with reduced ROS generation and oxidative damage, while hyperthyroidism was found associated with an increase in ROS production and a compensatory increase in anti-oxidant defense enzyme levels in several studies on murine models 29,42-44.

Ames and Snell dwarf mice represent an interesting model to investigate the impact of endocrine disorders on lifespan. They are naturally mutant mice characterized by pituitary hormone deficiencies (growth hormone -GH-, prolactin and TSH, and a consequent low level of circulating THs) resulting in small body size and delayed puberty. Ames and Snell dwarf mutant mice were found to live 40-70% longer than mice with normal thyroid hormone levels 45. It is worth noting that these mice not only live longer, but are also an example of successful aging, since they exhibit a less frequent development of age-related chronic diseases, including cataracts, kidney disease, and cancer with respect to wild type mice 45-48. Finally, long lasting administration of thyroxine was found to shorten dramatically their lifespan, though they still lived longer than wild type mice 45. In conclusion, the above described experimental studies clearly suggest that hypothyroid state may favor longevity by reducing metabolism rate, oxidative stress and cell senescence.


There's a mechanism for harm laid out by the experimental studies: running the metabolism too hot with excessive thyroid hormone increases oxidative stress, leads to premature cell senescence, and premature aging. While humans are not naked mole rats, wistar rats, or ames and snell dwarf mice, we see the same pattern in humans, where lower thyroid function is associated with longer lives. The picture that emerges here suggests a cavalier attitude toward thyroid optimization may cause harm to patients in the long run.
 

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BigTex

Well-Known Member
A typical dose of testosterone cypionate delivers more benzyl benzoate and benzyl alcohol than testosterone. For each 100 mg of testosterone, you get about 110 mg of these excipients.
And I think this is the benefit of having compound pharmacies. At least you can change the amount of BA/BB added to your oils. Even request specific oils. I have heard of quite a lot of people being allergic to BB and BA. The most common ratio is 2% BA and 20% BB. I think both are way to high. BA is only used to help keep the raw powder in solution. Of course enanthate would need much less that cypionate because of the nature of the raw product. Test cypionate has a melting point of 98.0-104.0°C and test enanthate has a melting point of 34-39°C. Enanthate is a waxy liquid as a raw product and cypionate is a powder.

How much of each are you getting?

10 grams Testosterone Cypionate or Test enanthate
•powder displacement of 9.09ml
•1.00ml benzyl alcohol (2% BA)
•10.00ml benzyl benzoate (20% BB)
•29.91ml cotton seed oil

10g = 10,000mg = 50ml = 5-10ml vials @ 200MG/ML
Do the math from here and it is a minute amount of BA/BB that is in each 100mg dose. of each. There is only 2% BA and 20% BB in 10,000mg of test. However, if you are allergic to it, that amount could cause an allergic reaction. Granted for each 100mg of test cyp there is only 69mg no ester. Anyway you look at it there is a very small amount of BB/BA per 100mg. Not to mention oil.
 
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Mastodont

Active Member
That definitely makes sense. Have you ever attempted a low dose AI at the initial peak to counteract those effects? My experience is the same as yours, I can't seem to replicate that feeling with frequency.
Not really, i crashed with anastrozole once upon a time and have since been in the no AI ever crowd, i'm pissed at myself for throwing that stuff in the trash, because i would like to try what you said, with tiniest of doses.
that has to mean that some guys are naturally resistant to shutdown of the testes more than others and can maintain at least some intratesticular function without LH or HCG.
I guess that is why no testosterone has gained the status of birth control, and everyone knows someone who got someone pregnant while on testosterone without hcg.
I was using the twice daily scrotal application and my balls felt greasy all day lol
Lol, same for me, mine was in versabase cream from Greece, since i'm in Europe, 20% cream, tested levels before and 4 hours after applying, got the same test levels, but i did get some headaches, so i guess there was something in it, or then it all turned into dht. No more greasy tiny balls for me thanks.
A typical dose of testosterone cypionate delivers more benzyl benzoate and benzyl alcohol than testosterone. For each 100 mg of testosterone, you get about 110 mg of these excipients.
Pharma sustanon has 100mg/ml of BA, i think in US enanthate it is usually around 10mg/ml. In Europe they have two versions of pharma enanthate, castor oil with BB, and arrachis oil with no excipients.
 

jmbb

Member
And I think this is the benefit of having compound pharmacies. At least you can change the amount of BA/BB added to your oils. Even request specific oils. I have heard of quite a lot of people being allergic to BB and BA. The most common ratio is 2% BA and 20% BB. I think both are way to high. BA is only used to help keep the raw powder in solution. Of course enanthate would need much less that cypionate because of the nature of the raw product. Test cypionate has a melting point of 98.0-104.0°C and test enanthate has a melting point of 34-39°C. Enanthate is a waxy liquid as a raw product and cypionate is a powder.
So I guess I'm much better off using the test E which only has the 2% BA and no BB. Hopefully it's not enough to cause issues.

Definitely true about the raws, all the way back in my AAS and homebrew days, test e was always a waxy powder that easily dissolved, where cyp was more of a hard dry powder and had to get warmer to dissolve. The only one being an actual liquid I remember was EQ.

I'm wondering what sides you had @FunkOdyssey were they similar to the ones you listed in your post about BA?
 

jmbb

Member
Not really, i crashed with anastrozole once upon a time and have since been in the no AI ever crowd, i'm pissed at myself for throwing that stuff in the trash, because i would like to try what you said, with tiniest of doses.
I have .125mg compounded tabs of anastrozole I can actually split into halves or quarters so I may give it a try at some point. I'll let you know if I do.
 

FunkOdyssey

Seeker of Wisdom
I guess that is why no testosterone has gained the status of birth control, and everyone knows someone who got someone pregnant while on testosterone without hcg.
I just ran a fertility test this morning with this product and the results were negative after 4 1/2 months of TRT. Seems to be working as birth control in most cases, you just can't guarantee it for a particular individual without testing. 95% effective would still produce plenty of pregnancy anecdotes.
 

FunkOdyssey

Seeker of Wisdom
I'm wondering what sides you had @FunkOdyssey were they similar to the ones you listed in your post about BA?
On low daily doses (10-15 mg) of BB/BA containing cypionate:
  • Anxiety, overstimulation, sometimes elevated HR and BP
  • Insomnia
  • Brain fog / impaired cognition / memory and word recall problems
  • Worsened laryngopharyngeal reflux symptoms
  • Major hair loss
I take much larger doses of hikma enanthate now (50 mg EOD) with none of these side effects.
 

jmbb

Member
On low daily doses (10-15 mg) of BB/BA containing cypionate:
  • Anxiety, overstimulation, sometimes elevated HR and BP
  • Insomnia
  • Brain fog / impaired cognition / memory and word recall problems
  • Worsened laryngopharyngeal reflux symptoms
  • Major hair loss
I take much larger doses of hikma enanthate now (50 mg EOD) with none of these side effects.
Do you think 2% BA alone in test E is enough to cause issues like this with no BB at all? I am noticing a better response and smoother release on E than C for sure.
 

FunkOdyssey

Seeker of Wisdom
How much of each are you getting?

10 grams Testosterone Cypionate or Test enanthate
•powder displacement of 9.09ml
•1.00ml benzyl alcohol (2% BA)
•10.00ml benzyl benzoate (20% BB)
•29.91ml cotton seed oil

10g = 10,000mg = 50ml = 5-10ml vials @ 200MG/ML
Do the math from here and it is a minute amount of BA/BB that is in each 100mg dose. of each. There is only 2% BA and 20% BB in 10,000mg of test.
10 ml of benzyl benzoate = 10 grams. So you have an equal amount of benzyl benzoate as you have testosterone ester by weight, plus the benzyl alcohol on top of that. That's how we determine that we are getting more excipients than testosterone ester. If you subtract the weight of the ester and just look at pure testosterone, the ratio of testosterone to excipients becomes even more lopsided.

It's like: do you want a little testosterone with your benzyl benzoate?
 

BigTex

Well-Known Member
So I guess I'm much better off using the test E which only has the 2% BA and no BB. Hopefully it's not enough to cause issues.

Definitely true about the raws, all the way back in my AAS and homebrew days, test e was always a waxy powder that easily dissolved, where cyp was more of a hard dry powder and had to get warmer to dissolve. The only one being an actual liquid I remember was EQ.

I'm wondering what sides you had @FunkOdyssey were they similar to the ones you listed in your post about BA?
Here is another solution....DELATESTRYL, which seems to be a very good option, testosterone enanthate with no BA/BB instead they use sesame oil with 5 mg chlorobutanol (chloral derivative) as a preservative. I knew a few lab guys and the all said that chlorobutanol is probably oneof the best preservative options for injectable oils. The biggest problem is it is much more expensive compared to BB.
 

FunkOdyssey

Seeker of Wisdom
Here is another solution....DELATESTRYL, which seems to be a very good option, testosterone enanthate with no BA/BB instead they use sesame oil with 5 mg chlorobutanol (chloral derivative) as a preservative. I knew a few lab guys and the all said that chlorobutanol is probably oneof the best preservative options for injectable oils. The biggest problem is it is much more expensive compared to BB.
That's the same as the hikma formula I'm using, which is a generic of delatestryl. If only an enterprising UGL operator would replicate it, we could save alot of money.
 

Mastodont

Active Member
It's like: do you want a little testosterone with your benzyl benzoate?
Nebido...This medicine contains 2000 mg benzyl benzoate in each 4 ml ampoule/vial which is equivalent to 500 mg/ml.

There is a known case of anaphylaxis post injection(confirmed BB), pretty sure most of the weird inconsistencies and symptoms i experienced with that were linked to BB
 

jmbb

Member
Here is another solution....DELATESTRYL, which seems to be a very good option, testosterone enanthate with no BA/BB instead they use sesame oil with 5 mg chlorobutanol (chloral derivative) as a preservative. I knew a few lab guys and the all said that chlorobutanol is probably oneof the best preservative options for injectable oils. The biggest problem is it is much more expensive compared to BB.
Wish I saw this before Defy sent me another 3 5ml vials last week lol. But I'll know for next time.
 

BigTex

Well-Known Member
10 ml of benzyl benzoate = 10 grams. So you have an equal amount of benzyl benzoate as you have testosterone ester by weight, plus the benzyl alcohol on top of that. That's how we determine that we are getting more excipients than testosterone ester. If you subtract the weight of the ester and just look at pure testosterone, the ratio of testosterone to excipients becomes even more lopsided.

It's like: do you want a little testosterone with your benzyl benzoate?
10g - 10000mg. So at 100mg per injection you will get 20 injection out of a 10ml vial. If we are at 70mg/no ester x 20 = that is 1400mg of test no ester per vial. Anyway you look at it if you have 5 vials of 10ml there is only 2ml of BB in each one so that leaves you with 0.1ml/100mg dose or 70mg of no ester. So wouldn't the ratio be 70mg no ester to 0.1ml of BB? Is that high? Sure if you are allergic to it. Most likely it could be made with 10% or less BB but you go to low with cypionate you and you will have a whole lot of complaints about the product crashing during the winter or even in people who keep the AC kind of cold. With enanthate, you really don't need BB because the melting point of the raw product is so low. I have seen enanthate made at 250-300mg/ml too with no crashing. As I mentioned chlorobutanol is most likely a better option buy it is expensive to use making the product's end price go up. Anyway, there are two ways to avoid getting more BB than what you want and that is to use a compound pharmacy, and have them make it to your specifications or make it yourself. DELATESTRYL and XYOSTED are of course two good options as well.
 

BigTex

Well-Known Member
That's the same as the hikma formula I'm using, which is a generic of delatestryl. If only an enterprising UGL operator would replicate it, we could save alot of money.
Its been available on the UG for a while....:) Many of these guy are very innovative.
 

FunkOdyssey

Seeker of Wisdom
Most likely it could be made with 10% or less BB but you go to low with cypionate you and you will have a whole lot of complaints about the product crashing during the winter or even in people who keep the AC kind of cold. With enanthate, you really don't need BB because the melting point of the raw product is so low. I have seen enanthate made at 250-300mg/ml too with no crashing.
This information about the different melting points is very interesting and explains why the cypionate products always contain BB and enanthate rarely does. It begs the question though, why did we start producing and marketing this cypionate ester that needs to be swimming in BB to dissolve, when we already had the almost identical enanthate that dissolves readily in oil alone? Was it the classic big pharma patent & profit motive? The more you think about it, the more it just seems like an inferior and redundant product.
 

Charliebizz

Well-Known Member
10 ml of benzyl benzoate = 10 grams. So you have an equal amount of benzyl benzoate as you have testosterone ester by weight, plus the benzyl alcohol on top of that. That's how we determine that we are getting more excipients than testosterone ester. If you subtract the weight of the ester and just look at pure testosterone, the ratio of testosterone to excipients becomes even more lopsided.

It's like: do you want a little testosterone with your benzyl benzoate?
I don’t know if I posted this already. But I couldn’t not tolerate any dose of test cyp. Compounded from empower or Pfizer brand. Yet I did much better on empower test e and also westward brand. I believe that is hikma now.
 

FunkOdyssey

Seeker of Wisdom
I don’t know if I posted this already. But I couldn’t not tolerate any dose of test cyp. Compounded from empower or Pfizer brand. Yet I did much better on empower test e and also westward brand. I believe that is hikma now.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. If you didn't look deeply into it, you probably just concluded the cypionate ester sucks and enanthate is better. The Internet is full of those anecdotes. But if you look more closely at those empower and pfizer cypionate formulas that you couldn't tolerate, there was more benzyl excipients in there than testosterone. THAT is what is missing from the empower and westward/hikma test E, and I believe that is the real cause for your different experiences.
 
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