DHT: Adding T Cream vs Higher Injections + AI

[antelopers]

Adding supplemental scrotal T cream seems to be the trend lately, and personally I've definitely seen some benefit. Based on information from some doctors and other board members it seems the DHT:E2 ratio is improved, which gives a better sense of well being and libido.

However, couldn't the same effect be achieved by simply raising your testosterone dose and including a low dose aromatase inhibitor like Anastrozole? This would achieve both higher levels of DHT from the increase in testosterone and blocking the aromatization conversion rate, and by directly blocking some E2 conversion itself. Besides not having to worry about daily application, absorption, or cross contamination.

I understand that some wouldn't want to do this because of the anti-AI trend, but they seem to be safe when used in normal doses. I also believe that your total T levels are going much higher during the day on scrotal T than you think - despite raising DHT, the scrotal cream will undoubtedly give a rise in total T as well. Limiting your T dose to one source of input would make it easier to control.

 

[Vince Carter]

Most every guy doing this has a 5AR dysfunction of some type or insufficiency in the presence of sufficient testosterone that leads them to treating DHT thru the scrotal application route. I see how you're trying to rationalize though but that's not the case in these guys; adding Test. Makes a HUGE assumption that the guy can convert it to DHT which is the core problem to start with.

 

[antelopers]

Most every guy doing this has a 5AR dysfunction of some type or insufficiency in the presence of sufficient testosterone that leads them to treating DHT thru the scrotal application route. I see how you're trying to rationalize though but that's not the case in these guys; adding Test. Makes a HUGE assumption that the guy can convert it to DHT which is the core problem to start with.

Most of the guys I've seen on here doing this don't have clinically low DHT, just mid range or slightly lower than mid, including yourself I believe, which combined with very low shbg is less likely a conversion issue and more likely an shbg issue. I'm sure that this would greatly benefit guys who have difficulty converting, but I'm really questioning the fact that this is trending tight now in guys who do not have low DHT levels.

 

[Vince Carter]

Do you mean the few that have taken to only using cream on the scrotum as the sole delivery method?

 

[antelopers]

Do you mean the few that have taken to only using cream on the scrotum as the sole delivery method?

I really meant it as a general question, but in reference to the guys like myself who decided to try it because of the recent trend of it being recommended by high profile trt docs and subjective reports of improved libido.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

I've added this also recently, and for whatever reason, the cream has a much better affect than raising my T dose, so I think the answer to the original question is "no". Also, the ranges for DHT are likely just as meaningless as most other ranges; trial and error is the answer. I lowered my injected T dose slightly to compensate so I don't think it's correct to assume that total T will always rise. For further validation, note that many who almost certainly did not have low DHT report excellent benefit from Masteron or Proviron which are very similar to DHT (not compounds I have used) which further suggests that raising DHT alone can be the missing link for many.

 

[fifty]

My dht is 19 with test 1000+. Interesting...

 

[antelopers]

My dht is 19 with test 1000+. Interesting...

That is low for sure, you may be one of the guys Vince mentioned with conversion issues.

 

[Vince Carter]

I pulled a 29 the other day on 16mg/D, I'm always low the best I could do was about 40 on a 16-79 scale but a little cream does the trick, testing verified me about 2hrs later at about 100 or a little more. 24hrs later I'm at baseline again.

All the times Ive seen it in myself with tests is that I have a defined 5AR inhibition, high TT and FT but lacking in that conversion.

I only use the cream a few days per week just for a cost savings but I do like the benefit of added DHT, usually on my offdays from the gym which are over the weekend. I don't use it every day.

 

[antelopers]

I pulled a 29 the other day on 16mg/D, I'm always low the best I could do was about 40 on a 16-79 scale but a little cream does the trick, testing verified me about 2hrs later at about 100 or a little more. 24hrs later I'm at baseline again.

All the times Ive seen it in myself with tests is that I have a defined 5AR inhibition, high TT and FT but lacking in that conversion.

I only use the cream a few days per week just for a cost savings but I do like the benefit of added DHT, usually on my offdays from the gym which are over the weekend. I don't use it every day.

Vince have you ever tested a peak vs trough comparison on injections alone? I'm curious how that would look with your shbg numbers. I also wonder if the test isn't in your system long could be the culprit for why you're not converting.

 

[Vince Carter]

I have run a set of labs 10hours after a 16mg injection and all indications were, if the lab is right, that my test is still rising or my peak occurs later than the 8hrs, as a trough measurement taken 6 weeks prior on the same 16mg was much higher, like double that FT.

My SHBG hovers @ about a 12.

With that measurement 8hrs later I was expecting to see a peak number but that wasn't what it came back with. I may try a 4pm set of labs which is the latest I can do (lab closes at 4) which would put me 12hrs post inj.

 

[antelopers]

I have run a set of labs 10hours after a 16mg injection and all indications were, if the lab is right, that my test is still rising or my peak occurs later than the 8hrs, as a trough measurement taken 6 weeks prior on the same 16mg was much higher, like double that FT.

My SHBG hovers @ about a 12.

With that measurement 8hrs later I was expecting to see a peak number but that wasn't what it came back with. I may try a 4pm set of labs which is the latest I can do (lab closes at 4) which would put me 12hrs post inj.

I'd be really interested to see that as well.

 

[Vince Carter]

I didn't talk about it because the numbers that I got when I put a trough and then this 8hrs post injection because it didn't make any sense. Will send you a PM later and show you. @antelopers

 

[Cataceous]

I've experimented with "disrupting" a static, injection-based TRT protocol by adding supplemental testosterone for a couple days, either in the form of scrotal cream or as injections of straight testosterone in oil. For me the subjective results were quite similar. In both scenarios there's a boost in libido and sexual function for several days. The increase in the daily testosterone dose is only about 20-30% over the baseline protocol. Lab testing hints that the aromatization rate is similar, but I can't be sure. My DHT under TRT—via injections—has drifted pretty low, 20 ng/dL at last measurement. Nonetheless, the times it has been much higher were not necessarily better, at least subjectively.

 

[antelopers]

I've experimented with "disrupting" a static, injection-based TRT protocol by adding supplemental testosterone for a couple days, either in the form of scrotal cream or as injections of straight testosterone in oil. For me the subjective results were quite similar. In both scenarios there's a boost in libido and sexual function for several days. The increase in the daily testosterone dose is only about 20-30% over the baseline protocol. Lab testing hints that the aromatization rate is similar, but I can't be sure. My DHT under TRT—via injections—has drifted pretty low, 20 ng/dL at last measurement. Nonetheless, the times it has been much higher were not necessarily better, at least subjectively.

When you say straight testosterone, do you mean test with no ester? Or just additional shots of T cyp or prop?

Also when you say it was improved libido for several days was that the length of your experiment or did it just wear off after?

 

[Cataceous]

When you say straight testosterone, do you mean test with no ester? Or just additional shots of T cyp or prop?

Also when you say it was improved libido for several days was that the length of your experiment or did it just wear off after?

Yes, it was testosterone with no ester, or TNE. The stuff does sting, even if it's only 2-3 mg, so not for everyone.

The effects would wear off in a week or a little less. If I used the extra testosterone continuously then the effects would wear off in about the same time frame and then I'd actually decline to a little worse than the old baseline.

 

[camygod]

Yes, it was testosterone with no ester, or TNE. The stuff does sting, even if it's only 2-3 mg, so not for everyone.

The effects would wear off in a week or a little less. If I used the extra testosterone continuously then the effects would wear off in about the same time frame and then I'd actually decline to a little worse than the old baseline.

What dose of TNE were you using and was it injceted every day ?

 

[eli]

There is just something about T on scrotum when it comes to libido and erections that I NEVER experienced with injections. I'm a low SHBG guy also (10-13)

I dropped my T cream from 50mg x2 a day to 50mg once a day and still feel good, but I was losing hair, thinning and got backne. I'll get bloods in a few weeks
If hair thinning continues, I'll try injection+ cream

 

[Vince Carter]

Remember when testing your DHT you need to apply the cream about 2hrs before your blood draw. I had this verified thru testing, I return to baseline 24hrs, you need to see how high your DHT is, NOT the trough.

 

[Cataceous]

What dose of TNE were you using and was it injceted every day ?

Only two or three milligrams. This is on top of 6-9 mg of T propionate. I've tried both isolated—e.g. weekly—and daily. Daily stops working after a week or so, but with isolated injections you can at least repeat the cycle indefinitely. I find it pretty interesting that something that should be out of your system in less than a day somehow has relatively long-term effects. Somehow just changing hormone levels has useful effects.