Can estrogen crash cause desensitization/knock out of the estrogen receptor - lets discuss!

[Vitamin_C]

What do you mean fix our guts? What is making you think my gut isn't optimal?

There seems to be a correlation between people who have suffered persistent side effects from certain drugs (Finasteride, Accutane etc) and poor gut health. Some of the recovery stories from PFS guys completely had to fix their gut/diet before they felt better.

 

[Vince]

To each their own, I never felt anything off Macuna but I still take it because I like the beneficial effects on the body, but I never "felt" it before. For me Macuna was like taking a multi-vitamin or Probiotic.

I think you guys should try high CBD oil concentrate, fix your guts, and try CDNUTS PFS recovery protocol.

I Googled CDNUTS PFS recovery protocol, it sounds like it's been successful for many men. Thanks for posting this I've never heard of it before.

 

[Vitamin_C]

for what its worth, this was posted by someone who recovered, this can be applied to any type of persistent drug side effect including Finasteride, Accutane, A-dex etc:

"I am making this a sticky so that others can reference it at their leisure. It was originally posted by English who is no longer active on this forum and does not want to be contacted.

The physiological causes of "PFS" and the cure
What follows is an explanation of the physiological causes of the condition people call “PFS”. It is important for sufferers to be aware of because knowing the causes results in the belief necessary to follow the very simple path to recovery, and it dispels the myth that it is incurable, which is nonsense because I am completely cured myself after being very badly affected for around 2 years.
This is not a theory, it is the actual cause and I should explain why I am so confident of it lest you write it off as just another theory of the hundreds that already exist, most of which are 100% nonsense, some of which have elements of truth:

A- I am one of the few complete recovery stories

B- I figured out what was wrong and then treated each area and recovered as a result, although It took me a while after recovery to reflect and fully understand the mechanisms at play

C- The reason I figured it out where others have failed is because I am literally a problem solving entrepreneur. I am a multi-millionaire businessman as a result. I score highly with psychopathic tendencies and score at genius levels in certain areas of intelligence tests. Together these items mean that I've been researching and thinking about the problem much of the time for around 3 years now, and because I must manage my psychopathic tendencies I feel like i need to publish this in order to move on now that I have settled on the cause. I appreciate the last sentences sounds somewhat comical, but that is the way it is. I am not showing off as actually i would prefer to be more normal most of the time.

I am not in the slightest bit interested in whether you agree with me or not, as I say, I need to publish this so I can fully move on, and if it helps you then that is great as that is certainly also a motivation for me too.

I will explain in a way that anyone bar idiots can understand, you are welcome to research the key areas of medicine which will back up what I am explaining in simple terms:

PFS in its fullest form with the full symptom range is a confluence of 3 major malfunctions of the body and mind, they are: Hormonal profile, Mind chemistry, GI tract.

The malfunctions regarding hormonal profile and GI tract are easy to understand and already have correct theories identified, these areas are pretty obvious, but I will briefly cover them before explaining the all important mind malfunction that completes the cause.

Hormonal Profile: As you will already know, taking a 5AR medicine/substance like finasteride or saw palmetto or excess green tea supplements (for example) will fundamentally alter your DHT levels and this on its own will at some point cause sexual, physical and sometimes also psychological issues linked to high estrogen, low testosterone and low DHT (generally). This is obvious and uninteresting but there is a clear myth in the PFS community that DHT levels don't recover. This is utter nonsense borne out by tens if not hundreds of blood results on post fin websites that clearly show the return of normal DHT levels relative to Testosterone levels in men who have been tested. For example, Finasteride is a suicidal 5AR inhibitor, meaning that once it binds with the enzyme, it stays bound until metabolized by the body with fresh enzymes being generated which over a matter of weeks, and this renews normal 5AR functions.

The cessation of the 5AR inhibitor will result in the return of normal male functions over a matter of weeks if only the following 2 areas are not also affected, which in many men, they are:

GI Tract: The GI tract is greatly affected by androgen levels and this is borne out by many quality studies whereby its efficiency and general health is enhanced the higher the androgen levels, and this is true for most bodily tissues in males. It is not a great problem for short periods of low androgen levels and/or in the event of a tract with a good bacterial balance and lacking in harmful parasites etc. whereby one can be resilient to the affects of a 5AR inhibitor for quite some time, however poor GI health coupled with 5AR will worsen the situation, and the GI tract is the basis of good health, it is where 70% of the bodies immunity comes from and without its proper function, toxins will poison the body and mind and vital vitamins and nutrients will not be absorbed.

Importantly, poor GI health will flood the body with inflammatory cytokines that will create androgen insensitivity by binding with and compromising androgen receptors. This explains why many PFS suffers present with normal androgen levels but exhibit all the symptoms of hypogonadism.

The Mind: This is the interesting part thus far unexplained. The brain has a pleasure and pain centre that is interlinked and the receptors of which are fired by the same neurotransmitters which are produced by the bodies reaction to both pleasurable and painful events, whether that be sexual arousal, your football team scoring, or intense stress, long term stress and worry, grief etc.
Neurotransmitters such as serotonin, dopamine and stress hormones such as cortisol, adrenaline and a whole host of others affect the pleasure/pain centre and as with anywhere in the body, overstimulation over time results in the body seeking equilibrium. The end result of this is a dulling of the reception to emotional pleasure and pain. This happens when one is stressed for long periods of time, or even high for long periods of time too, as with drug miss-use.

From a PFS point of view, to a good extent low libido is explained by this, for arousal by definition is the anticipation of pleasure which is greatly impaired by this dulling as a result of long periods of stress. Depression is a condition which is affected by this very issue with sufferers being incapable of being able to anticipate pleasure.

I know that those with PFS, like myself just over a year ago, walk around as if viewing life through a blanket, with reduced perceptions, with emotions dulled to both pleasure and emotional pain.

This condition of the mind as a result of prolonged stress and worry will almost always result in a fundamental change in the chemistry of the brain too, with altered levels of neurotransmitters to add to the changed receptor environment, all of which resulting in the classic brain fog reported by sufferers along with anxiety and depression, also reduced cognitive ability.

Summary:
It is clear to see how the 3 issues combined together create the condition called PFS, but actually, these things happen to many people around the globe sometimes independently of each other and often causing each other over time. The comical thing is that dependent on the extent of the symptoms and/or the frames of reference of the complainant, they are labelled with varying unexplained conditions such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome which is a favourite, simply “stress”, sometimes ME and a whole host of others that share some or all of the symptoms complained about by those who have labelled themselves as PFS sufferers.

I hope you can see more clearly that the condition – once the drug is removed for long enough– is simply created by continuing fear of male functions not returning. It is completely understandable of course. I was there myself, but a big turning point was when I happened across a forum where I saw hundreds of men suffering from all the classic PFS symptoms who were convinced it was caused by the hair loss foam like regaine. Let's be clear, that foam is a mild irritant to the skin which causes increased blood concentrations and so hair to regrow. It is not capable of causing the catalogue of health complaints of “PFS” sufferers. By the way, sufferers on the hair foam forum were not taking 5AR medication, hardly any of them anyhow and they were making that fact very clear.

At that point I realised how ridiculous I was being, and immediately I started getting better. It took another 18 months or so to get back to my old self and it took time to build belief. I read nothing but recovery posts of people like CDSNUTS and CHI amongst others to basically shrivel the thick neural bundles formed in my brain that tried to suck me back to their paths of worry and stress. I did and still do maybe another 20 key things as part of a regimen in order to fix my gut, restore a healthy hormonal profile and receptivity to them, and to fix my minds chemistry. I've kept most of those things going even though I enjoy great health again because I like doing them and I want to stay strong and fit even when old.
I have already posted at length on the type of things you need to do, but i will simply refer you to CDSNUTS who is a good friend of mine. If you are suffering from what you call PFS, you should visit his website which he has virtually finished now. He has took time to explain fully what you need to do in easy to digest sections, it is all for free and despite my own extensive knowledge in the health and fitness sector, his knowledge is better than mine. Furthermore, I have no wish to hang around in this area as I simply want to leave all of this behind. I have purposely been away from this forum for the last 5 months or so, but knew I should post this, and this will in all likelihood be my last post.

Remember that you do not have some incurable issue, you have what millions of others have but call something different, you have prolonged fear just like them, except for you it is after seeing your rude health decline quickly following your first sexual failure after being an idiot and taking a drug for reasons of vanity.

Do yourself a favour and visit CD's website when it goes live. He will see this post and pass you the link to it. You will have to be very disciplined for a couple of years to fully recover but it is fun too, especially when you realise your life is not over and that your health is returning. Personally, I am now as fit and strong as I've ever been, sexually too – I'm almost 42.

Please note I have no financial affiliation with CDSNUTS whatsoever and his info is free. I refer you to him simply because there is no point reinventing the wheel when actually we both did pretty much the same things to recover. I've told you why it all happened to you, now go to him to help fix you.

Total Male Optimization Just another WordPress site"

 

[nurselyfe]

There seems to be a correlation between people who have suffered persistent side effects from certain drugs (Finasteride, Accutane etc) and poor gut health. Some of the recovery stories from PFS guys completely had to fix their gut/diet before they felt better.

Believe me I've read it, I've even talked to CD at swolesource. CD had none of the severe symptoms such as bone loss, shrinkage, and he reacted positively to any kind of androgen increase. He had hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, as do many other men. This can certainly cause gut issues and thyroid issues I've said this, and Dr. Crisler has said this, many men who think they have PFS, do not.

While PFS is very general term and groups men who have any kind of persistent side effect after finasteride, it's the guys with androgen insensitivity who have true PFS.

My gut is fine. I eat a very well balanced diet, as I have for 10+ years, lots of probiotics, have normal bowel movements every day, never any indigestion, nausea, stomach pain, normal colored stools.

CD's protocol is great nonetheless for overall health. Check out his site totalmaleoptimization.com

EDIT: didn't see you linked his site already

 

[nurselyfe]

New bloodwork. 29mg T Cyp EOD IM. No arimidex obviously.

Hemoglobin 16.8 (13-17.7)
Hematocrit 47.4 (37.5-51)
Platelets 143 (150-379) LOW
CMP and Liver enzymes in normal range
Urinalysis normal
Total T 1006 (264-916)
Free T 24.2 (9.3-26.5)
A1c 4.9 (4.8-5.6)
DHEA-s 374.3 (164.3-530.5)
Cortisol 11.6 (6.2-19.4)
TSH 1.94 (0.450-4.5)
Total T4 6.6 (4.5-12)
Total T3 95 (71-180)
Prolactin 11.7 (4-15.2)
E2 34.9 (7.6-42.6)
PSA 0.4 (0-4)
IGF1 221 (115-355)
Calcitriol/1,25 di-OH Vit D 40.6 (19.9-79.3)
Magnesium 2.2 (1.6-2.3)
Ferritin 72 (30-400)


So what's changed?

My ferritin has gone up from 30 (since June), I gave blood twice in the beginning of 2017.

My IGF-1 went down, but I drew bloods at a different time

My prolactin went up from 7.8

My PSA went down by 0.1

My E2 is 34.1 and T is 1000. And I still feel like my estrogen receptor does not work. I do not even feel low E2 symptoms. I just feel like my receptor function is null.

My old low E2 symptoms were vascularity, no water retention, dry skin, dry mouth, frequent urination, morning erections, good libido, good pumps and zest for life.


My old high E2 symptoms were vascularity, water retention, super soft skin, fast hair growth, sweating, always warm, red flushed skin, great libido, oily skin, weak pumps (I would get high E2 on 100mg a week T with no AI... which is what I am on now)


I have neither of these symptoms. High or Low.

I have devastating hair loss, brain fog, no zest for life, no libido, erectile dysfunction, dry lips, dry mouth when I work out, no pumps at all, no red flushed skin, cold clammy skin, low blood pressure, no vascularity, anhedonia, low mood, less desire to be active, hair loss on my body, skin texture changes, pale skin, COMPLETE absence of sebum, no physiologic response to working out (don't get sore, muscles do not get stronger), appetite changes, slower metabolism, weight gain

 

[simeoni]

Well on paper everything does seem normal. I suppose your morning cortisol could be a bit higher but it's not definitively low enough to cause your symptoms.


Speaking about your symptoms; what do you mean by brain fog? Do you feel that this ordeal affects your working memory?


I still feel that the majority of my symptoms revolve around dopamine; low libido, diminished ability to enjoy things, low drive/motivation, feeling disconnected from others. I do not have the physical symptoms that you have.

Also, your theory that raising E2 leads to a permanent worsening of this condition does not seem to apply with me. During these past weeks I have tried higher doses of HCG and did not notice a permanent change for the worse. I did however notice that the elevation of E2 did not cause the same effects that it once did.

From the literature it does seem clear that you need healthy amount of estrogen for proper dopamine release. Also it is clear that estrogen is involved in the thing's that you mentioned - like sebum production.

So if I look at my situation the most plausible hypothesis would be that the overuse of aridmidex caused some sort of dysfunction/damage to my dopaminergic neurons. By looking at the past 6 months I would cautiously say that my body is recovering from that.

Your case seems a bit different - with all those physical symptoms. By looking at your history and symptoms the hypothesis you present could be a possibility. Of course - like you stated - its pure speculation at this point.

May I ask how are you planning to proceed with your condition? You once mentioned something about the use of HDAC inhibitors. On paper they do seem to do what you are hoping to accomplish:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17172825

 

[nurselyfe]

Well on paper everything does seem normal. I suppose your morning cortisol could be a bit higher but it's not definitively low enough to cause your symptoms.


Speaking about your symptoms; what do you mean by brain fog? Do you feel that this ordeal affects your working memory?


I still feel that the majority of my symptoms revolve around dopamine; low libido, diminished ability to enjoy things, low drive/motivation, feeling disconnected from others. I do not have the physical symptoms that you have.

Also, your theory that raising E2 leads to a permanent worsening of this condition does not seem to apply with me. During these past weeks I have tried higher doses of HCG and did not notice a permanent change for the worse. I did however notice that the elevation of E2 did not cause the same effects that it once did.

From the literature it does seem clear that you need healthy amount of estrogen for proper dopamine release. Also it is clear that estrogen is involved in the thing's that you mentioned - like sebum production.

So if I look at my situation the most plausible hypothesis would be that the overuse of aridmidex caused some sort of dysfunction/damage to my dopaminergic neurons. By looking at the past 6 months I would cautiously say that my body is recovering from that.

Your case seems a bit different - with all those physical symptoms. By looking at your history and symptoms the hypothesis you present could be a possibility. Of course - like you stated - its pure speculation at this point.

May I ask how are you planning to proceed with your condition? You once mentioned something about the use of HDAC inhibitors. On paper they do seem to do what you are hoping to accomplish:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17172825

Yes, I used to have the most incredible memory, almost photographic memory which came in handy during my anatomy and physiology practicals. I could recall anything in short term or long term memory. Now my short term memory is going quick and can't remember names of things, things that happened days ago, or putting names to faces.

Also, I wouldn't depend on hcg to give you raises in E2. If you inject a higher dose of test and notice worsening of your symptoms you'll know for sure. When this all started in May, I didn't have 90% of the symptoms I have now. I mostly felt disconnected, lower but not too low of libido, some hairloss, decreased gym performance. They progressively got worse every time I dropped then raised my estrogen. Regardless, I hope you're not in my shoes. I wouldn't wish this upon anyone.

It just completely logical that my hypothesis could be a possibility, there is some kind of dysfunction. I never had any of my symptoms, not even close. I look at my body now and it seems clear completely foreign.

Right now, I am keeping my testosterone doses very steady and stable, not changing anything. Trying to stay away from anything that lowers or increases E2 (grapefruit, glycine, alcohol). Or anything that increases DHT (creatine) since DHT converts into potent ERb agonists 3β diol. Staying away from anything with phytoestrogens.

My psychologist also believes, based on my history and current symptoms this is of organic etiology, something molecular and told me if I want change or this to be investigated, I need to advocate for myself. So, I have began emailing researchers at universities explaining my case and offering them the possibility to investigate it further.

Sleep and energy are still good, not really experiencing any anxiety or depression as I am beginning to learn how to live with this condition, but mentally I don't feel like I used to. Always had a sense of well being, calmness, euphoria, libido, and something to look forward too. I have none of that.

 

[simeoni]

Well HCG has been the most estrogenic substance that I have used. Usually that - with the doses that I have used - would cause a decent increase in E2. Of course I cannot be certain without lab work.

My current plan is to go back to aveed (Nebido) somewhere in the next fall - If I do not improve by then. That protocol definitively should increase my E2.

Hopefully you will find an open minded researcher who his willing take a deeper look at your case.

 

[nurselyfe]

Well HCG has been the most estrogenic substance that I have used. Usually that - with the doses that I have used - would cause a decent increase in E2. Of course I cannot be certain without lab work.

My current plan is to go back to aveed (Nebido) somewhere in the next fall - If I do not improve by then. That protocol definitively should increase my E2.

Hopefully you will find an open minded researcher who his willing take a deeper look at your case.

I feel like being on Nebido is like being in the dark. At least with T Cyp you know the half life is 8 days on average.

 

[nurselyfe]

I'd also like to add that I'm still pretty strong, but my strength will not budge and stays stagnant as long as I'm going to the gym. I also do not get even the slightest bit of blood flow or pump and get absolutely no "burn" in any type of workout. When I was normal, my strength would increase every workout in terms of weight on the bar increasing, the amount of reps per set increasing, or the intensity of my workout. My pumps would literally hurt but I'd absolutely love the feeling.

My legs have got substaintially weaker - used to do 315 for 15 reps on squat. Can barely get 225lbs now for 15 reps.
Deadlift max used to be 475, now it's 375.

Other things have stayed around the same - 235 for sets of 10 on bench was extremely easy for me and i'd be able to perform at full strength for another 1-2 hours, now it's pretty difficult and usually get 5 reps and i'm completely taxed after

 

[ilomia]

Did you ever or still have cracking joints when you crashed your estrogen? I have not seen that you mention joint issues.

I'd also like to add that I'm still pretty strong, but my strength will not budge and stays stagnant as long as I'm going to the gym. I also do not get even the slightest bit of blood flow or pump and get absolutely no "burn" in any type of workout. When I was normal, my strength would increase every workout in terms of weight on the bar increasing, the amount of reps per set increasing, or the intensity of my workout. My pumps would literally hurt but I'd absolutely love the feeling.



My legs have got substaintially weaker - used to do 315 for 15 reps on squat. Can barely get 225lbs now for 15 reps.
Deadlift max used to be 475, now it's 375.

Other things have stayed around the same - 235 for sets of 10 on bench was extremely easy for me and i'd be able to perform at full strength for another 1-2 hours, now it's pretty difficult and usually get 5 reps and i'm completely taxed after

 

[nurselyfe]

Did you ever or still have cracking joints when you crashed your estrogen? I have not seen that you mention joint issues.

Great observation man. When I used to go too low on estrogen, my joints would absolutely kill. I couldn't do skull crushers or anything that put a lot of stress on my elbow joints. This is probably because I used to get very dry and urinated a lot.

In late May and in June when I practically had zero estrogen, confirmed by blood work, my joints barely hurt. In fact, I retained a ton of water.

This is one of the major reasons why I know something is messed up, for lack of better words.

Currently, I am still retaining an incredible amount of water but my joints hurt some days.

 

[ilomia]

So currently your joints do not crack?

Great observation man. When I used to go too low on estrogen, my joints would absolutely kill. I couldn't do skull crushers or anything that put a lot of stress on my elbow joints. This is probably because I used to get very dry and urinated a lot.

In late May and in June when I practically had zero estrogen, confirmed by blood work, my joints barely hurt. In fact, I retained a ton of water.

This is one of the major reasons why I know something is messed up, for lack of better words.

Currently, I am still retaining an incredible amount of water but my joints hurt some days.

 

[ilomia]

How do you feel when you get up in the morning? My cortisol is pretty much the same as yours, many would say its low.

Great observation man. When I used to go too low on estrogen, my joints would absolutely kill. I couldn't do skull crushers or anything that put a lot of stress on my elbow joints. This is probably because I used to get very dry and urinated a lot.

In late May and in June when I practically had zero estrogen, confirmed by blood work, my joints barely hurt. In fact, I retained a ton of water.

This is one of the major reasons why I know something is messed up, for lack of better words.

Currently, I am still retaining an incredible amount of water but my joints hurt some days.

 

[nurselyfe]

So currently your joints do not crack?

Currently they do. But nothing like they used to feel like when I was normal.

 

[nurselyfe]

How do you feel when you get up in the morning? My cortisol is pretty much the same as yours, many would say its low.

Pretty good in the morning. How do you feel?

 

[ilomia]

Can you describe what your joints feel like? is the cracking debilitating?

Currently they do. But nothing like they used to feel like when I was normal.

 

[ilomia]

I feel okay, but some times like not getting up.

Pretty good in the morning. How do you feel?

 

[ilomia]

Are you a nurse?

 

[nurselyfe]

Are you a nurse?

Soon to be nurse.

Joint cracking isnt debilitating but it's annoying.