Can estrogen crash cause desensitization/knock out of the estrogen receptor - lets discuss!

[nurselyfe]

//minus the libido which is expected with a non functioning ER.//

Why did the case study of the man born with estrogen insensitivity have normal sexual function, including nocturnal erections and no ED/libido issues? Libido/ED is much deeper than just a single hormone.

With the new data emerging from PFS studies, you cannot rule out nocebo effect, considering placebo group (those who didnt take finasteride) reported a laundry list of sexual sides despite them getting sugar pills. There is no solid human data that finasteride does anything to receptors at all, its a theory, but there is scant data to back this up. People have recovered from PFS, that shows you that it's not permanent at all but they had to put in work to change their mind/body/gut. As for estrogen insensitivity, that has even fewer data to support it other than a few anecdotal accounts. We just can't make up stuff in medicine, there needs to be data behind it, even the supposed data and theory from moderators on PFS forums is lacking credibility, although their efforts were quite good. I also find it interesting that older men with BPH who take Finasteride at 5mg/day report less sexual sides than 20-30's men who take 1mg per day, the paradox of PFS continues...

//However, there's men who have not recovered and tried large amounts of T & DHT with no response and even got worse.//

Because its not black and white, there are guys with high T that have libido/ed issues, there are guys with low T that have no issues with libido. When my T was low, I could get rock hard and had a great libido and great mood, we know that hormones are important, but they are not the end all be all with the human psyche, we barely know anything about mental health, many theories, nothing solid.

//Lol and lastly, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE.//

You could be the first person this happened to in medical literature, but you must prove it first in which you are refusing to do, the pharmacology behind Arimidex does not support this and this is a heavily studied drug and we have had millions of patients take tremendously high doses of this medication for long periods of time, DATA would be somewhere, think of all the breast cancer women who take this medication for 7-10 years @ 1mg a day, we have a large sample size, we have absolutely ZERO evidence this happens. If we need more evidence for this problem, you really should step up for the sake of science. The easiest way to do this would be to come off TRT and get your baseline levels back, if your E2 skyrockets, congratulations, your E2 is skyrocketing because its not getting used by receptors.

Also, I've noticed a trend with you, your symptoms seem to come and go, one minute you are having anxiety depression, penile shrinkage etc, next minute your not. I cannot keep up with your symptom list anymore to establish a baseline.



Also, I've had joint popping with low E2, in range E2, and high E2, I don't see the correlation with the two. My wife has joint popping as well, and she's never taken an AI and her estrogen levels are within range. I don't see how half these problems have to do with insensitivity to estrogen. Anyways, I am getting burned out on this thread and it doesn't seem like we are getting any other contributers, so I am done here and unsubscribing.

You either have this problem or you don't. You have not been diagnosed with this problem other than a self-diagnosis, you cannot be 100% sure you are insensitive to estrogen, so its possible E2 is being used properly in your body. You can either let this defeat you or define you. Start fixing your body, the body always wants to return to homeostasis and has been shown to heal itself. I am 100% certain you can fix yourself but you HAVE to believe and you may have to make some drastic changes to your lifestyle.

I don't know why the case study with the man with EIS still had sexual function. His is congenital, his body's may have adapted differently. I still have sexual function, but it's ED and nothing like I had before. I still get nocturnal erections. but they're extremely weak and nothing like before. Remember, this guy could have nocturnal erections but still be weak and not full, but he doesn't know better, so he is reporting that he has them.

You need to stop looking at 1 single aspect to back up your point. it's not just libido. These guys use TRT and even use large doses and still have no libido, muscle wastage, penile shrinkage and tissue loss, facial boneloss, anhedonia, etc. It clearly shows androgen insensitivity. This is present in way too many men. And for the guys who recover, look at their initial symptoms, NONE had tissue loss. They just had ED, anxiety, low energy. Clearly hypogonadism or hypothyroidism, not PFS. You cannot lump these guys together as a whole. You can do your own research it's all there for you to see.

Ive noticed a trend with you too. You tend to give me a symptoms I never said I had. I never ever said I had shrinkage. Please review my initial posts. My symptoms are still the same, except slightly worse. Also, ever here of a good day and bad day? Yeah im depressed and have anxiety but I have a life, a girlfriend, family and responsibilities. Some days I feel Ok mentally, still depressed but trying to keep my mind off of it.

Once again everyone is different. Some people only have joint popping with low E2. Just because you have it with both, doesn't mean that's the case with everyone. I really hope you don't carry this habit over into your job you'll be in a world of hurt.

What life style changes do you suppose I make? I eat healthy, I exercise even though I get zero benefit, and I maintain my social and work life. Please enlighten me.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Have you ever thought about consulting with Dr. Saya and Defy medical? There are few others I would trust with my hormone health. In regards to your ED issue, can get hard by viewing pornography and masturbation or you still can't get hard by viewing porn?

// These guys use TRT and even use large doses and still have no libido, muscle wastage, penile shrinkage and tissue loss, facial boneloss, anhedonia, etc.//

Testosterone is not a panacea, there are plenty of men on TRT who still have these issues as well and there are plenty of men who are completely asymptomatic despite having low to low normal testosterone, I was one of them. Like I said earlier, nothing is truly black and white with the body, there are many things at play.

 

[nurselyfe]

Have you ever thought about consulting with Dr. Saya and Defy medical? There are few others I would trust with my hormone health. In regards to your ED issue, can get hard by viewing pornography and masturbation or you still can't get hard by viewing porn?

// These guys use TRT and even use large doses and still have no libido, muscle wastage, penile shrinkage and tissue loss, facial boneloss, anhedonia, etc.//

Testosterone is not a panacea, there are plenty of men on TRT who still have these issues as well and there are plenty of men who are completely asymptomatic despite having low to low normal testosterone, I was one of them. Like I said earlier, nothing is truly black and white with the body, there are many things at play.

Think about this scenario. 20 years old, no health issues prior, jumps on TRT. While on TRT, still no health issues. Great libido, great hair, great erections, great skin, no muscle wastage, recovery is great, mood is incredible, doesn't know what depression or anxiety even is. Used nolvadex and clomid in the past, while taking short breaks, responded well to them. Used arimidex in the past at small doses (0.2mg) every 2 weeks to control estrogen.

At 23 years old, while everything was still the same, E2 gets crashed to most likely zero, all of this changes within a few days, and only progressively gets worse.

I now am on 100mg a week, no AI, like I've been doing for the last few years, and feel like an alien compared to what I used to feel like.

There was even a point where I did 100mg a week and no AI for 3 months (just to improve joint comfort) and had stellar libido, great skin hair and nails, mood etc.

I'm on that SAME protocol now and I have none of that.

This should tell anyone with common sense something is wrong. What's the first thing someone would look at? Probably thyroid. Thyroid looks good as per endocrinologist, and myself. Adrenals second? Adrenals look good, aldo and cortisol are in range. I don't have fatigue issues or orthostatic hypotension. What's next? Pituitary output of GH? Also in normal range 267 (53-350). I don't know what else could be causing this problem except estrogen insensitivity. I've said it from the start of all of this I had some kind of altered gene expression. But like you, I didn't want to believe something so bizzare and not backed by any kind of literature on the internet. After awhile, I found PFS sites and saw that a subset of these men definitely had some kind of proposed androgen insensitivity that cannot be cured by T, Clomid, HCG. It exists.

Another thought. Think about the first person to present with fibromyalgia. Body aches and muscle pains all over. Doctors probably thought they were crazy at first. But after research, it clearly exists and is now diagnosable and partially treatable. What I am saying is, consider the possibility that we have not discovered everything about the human body yet. The anecdotal evidence is there, people getting persistent side effects from all kinds of inhibitors; Accutane, Finasteride, SSRI's, and now look, Arimidex. It just needs to be studied further on a molecular level to prove it. And if it is looked into on the molecular, post transcription level, and nothing comes back abnormal, I will stand down.

To answer your questions on the severity of my ED. Before, I had extremely hard erections that I could get just by thinking about something. I never had ED from drinking even which my girlfriend loved. It would get throbbing, veiny, and red full of blood.

Now, they're about 60-70% as hard and I lose the erection extremely quickly. I can get hard by viewing pornography but it's only 60-70% hard. Same thing when I have sex with my girlfriend. I just don't get hammers anymore and my libido is almost zero.

I don't know what Dr. Saya would do for me. My protocol is good. 29mg T EOD IM, no AI, and no hcg since I do not respond to it.

 

[Vitamin_C]

You say you had no health issues but you started on TRT at 20 years old?

 

[nurselyfe]

You say you had no health issues but you started on TRT at 20 years old?

That is correct. Ran a T only "cycle" (not promoting this) for 20 weeks. Came off with Nolvadex and Clomid, saw a dramatic increase in testicular size and ejaculatory volume, felt great by 7-8 weeks off. Went back on again at 120mg per week, stayed on since.

Felt incredible, until I crashed my estrogen in late May.

 

[lowe2sucks]

How can you explain Vitamin_C this:
After week or too on 0.5 anastrozole every other day and then week of 1 mg anastrozole every other day and then few days 1mg every day I suddenly found myself feeling completely anhedonic and detached from everybody including family and friends starting to have weird social anxiety and negative outlook at life looking in mirror seeing my body completely changed and looking like old mans body, hair went completely dry and different texture, skin dry, penis shrank to almost pre puberty size, complete loss of energy, motivation and feelings of joy, needing to pee every thirty minutes, complete loss of libido, and panic attacks.. I am not even same person anymore. How can you explain this? Something had to happen...
I forgot about other symptoms
Total loss of muscle fulness and losing muscles size and strenght (which was important for me I was bodybuiler before this happened), loss of androgenic features on my face and body, body hair becoming dry and coarse, heat intolerance, sweat started to smell nasty, brain fog, loss of water retention and bloat which I always had from testosterone, no veins on my muscles anymore no matter how hard I push myself on workouts, no energy to do anything, my attidude became feminine I am struglinng when maknig decisions and just feel like I am permanent low T despite not having low T.. and all symptoms were progressively worsening
it took me 2 years to get some improvement after that crash.. But I wasnt nearly back to usual myself even after that long of time..

 

[simeoni]

Despite saying that im still somewhat sceptic towards the proposed theory, I cannot escape the fact that im having many symptoms that these two seem to be having.

Ive had e2 crashes before and there was always a certain time period whic brought a clear improvement in symptoms. For me this usually meant something like 10 days. After the latests crashes this improvements just wouldnt come.

Heres what im still missing:

- libido
its not non-existant but very weak. Like night and day when compared to the time before crashes

- sense of well being
I used to be quite energetic and enthuastic about my future. Now I just try to survive from one day to another.

- feeling disconnected
this is one of the symptoms that I hate the most. I had much stronger ability to connect on a emotional level with my loved ones.

- male aggression / sense of masculinity
today was injection day and I really didnt get any kick from the test. This used to be quite different. In the past injection always brought with it a sense of positive aggression.

Why I still havent been able to shrug off these symptoms? The majority of my symptoms seem to revolve around dopamine. From the literature its clear that estrogen has neuroprotective effects regarding dopamine. First I thought that perhaps I had lost a certain percent of my dopaminergic neurons. I do not believe that to be the case however.

There could be something off with my dopamine receptors. One thing pointing to this direction is the fact that taking mucuna doesnt do anything anymore. In the past the past this was very different.

who knows? Maybe im wrong and there is some e2 insenstivity in my body also.

Now like it was said , there are better days with this. If I look at the past months I do see an improvement in my condition.

 

[lowe2sucks]

^maybe normal estrogen functioning is required to fully activate dopamine receptors.. I too don't get same feeling lets say from a cigarette or alchohol.. The buzz isnt the same. post crash im like always tired.. I used to get up and be excited about the day thinking what I want to do when I have free time.. now I don't even have energy to think about it
by the way as far as my ability to enjoy thing I definitely improved in that area 2 years post lost adex pill but as Simeoni things just don't feel the same as they were before this crap my first year was mostly bad days and on 2nd year it was mostly ok days
simeoni have you had any shrinkage when you crashed? my penis is thinner than it used to be and feels like it doesn't get as long when errect as it used to get (which probably made me think it was shrinkage maybe its only lack of blood flow I've never showed it to urologist personally yet)

 

[nurselyfe]

Despite saying that im still somewhat sceptic towards the proposed theory, I cannot escape the fact that im having many symptoms that these two seem to be having.

Ive had e2 crashes before and there was always a certain time period whic brought a clear improvement in symptoms. For me this usually meant something like 10 days. After the latests crashes this improvements just wouldnt come.

Heres what im still missing:

- libido
its not non-existant but very weak. Like night and day when compared to the time before crashes

- sense of well being
I used to be quite energetic and enthuastic about my future. Now I just try to survive from one day to another.

- feeling disconnected
this is one of the symptoms that I hate the most. I had much stronger ability to connect on a emotional level with my loved ones.

- male aggression / sense of masculinity
today was injection day and I really didnt get any kick from the test. This used to be quite different. In the past injection always brought with it a sense of positive aggression.

Why I still havent been able to shrug off these symptoms? The majority of my symptoms seem to revolve around dopamine. From the literature its clear that estrogen has neuroprotective effects regarding dopamine. First I thought that perhaps I had lost a certain percent of my dopaminergic neurons. I do not believe that to be the case however.

There could be something off with my dopamine receptors. One thing pointing to this direction is the fact that taking mucuna doesnt do anything anymore. In the past the past this was very different.

who knows? Maybe im wrong and there is some e2 insenstivity in my body also.

Now like it was said , there are better days with this. If I look at the past months I do see an improvement in my condition.

Everyone of those symptoms you mentioned, I have now.

In the summer, when I felt I had much better estrogen sensitivity, it wasn't as bad and could feel connected to my loved ones. And I still had a sense of well being and decent libido.

That's all gone now as I've made my situation much much worse from increasing my estrogen and taking the SERMS.

I used to be a very very aggressive guy, with aspirations to be extremely successful and tons of career goals. Libido was almost too much at times. All gone.

I think that since there are ERs on the dopamine neurons, and the ERs aren't getting the signal from E2 anymore, our dopamine neurons aren't working as well. I really doubt we've permanently destroyed our neurons.

Simeoni, I really think you're in the same stage I was in when it was June or July. I still had a great deal of estrogen sensitivity, but I didn't feel "right" or the way I used to feel so it bothered me a lot and I tried to fix it. In hindsight, I wish I just left it alone and didn't make matters worse for myself. I really think you should take my advice and never play around with your T dose or any AI's anymore. Perhaps you have what we have, and that makes you vulnerable in getting worse. Perhaps you don't. But trust me, I wish every single day I left it alone in the summer rather than trying to fix it. Anything would be better than how I feel now.

 

[simeoni]

Here are two studies that seem to give support to your experience.

Estradiol increases the sensitivity of the ventral tegmental area dopamine neurons to dopamine and ethanol
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29107956

Estrogen regulates response of dopamine neurons in the ventral tegmental area to cocaine
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18516717

I think its pretty clear that estrogen plays an important role in normal pleasure response.

^maybe normal estrogen functioning is required to fully activate dopamine receptors.. I too don't get same feeling lets say from a cigarette or alchohol.. The buzz isnt the same.

 

[nurselyfe]

When I drink now it only feels a little different. I don't really get the intense euphoria anymore but it's still pleasurable.

However, I do not get the same effects from caffeine and adderall.

 

[Vitamin_C]

I'll share a little story with you guys. When I was 21 I took a couple of my brothers friends Risperdals, about 2-3mg worth because he said it would help me "study and focus" more. That night I felt absolutely terrible, couldnt sleep, rigid legs, a weird buzz in my head, felt that the joy and life were sapped out of me the next morning. I was so worried that I had seriously messed up my brain and upon further research saw how these drugs alter dopamine levels. This persisted for months... For a few days I was shooting blanks during sex, had no semen come out of my penis, my mood was absolutely dull and flat. I was so worried I got an MRI (MRI showed a healthy brain). For the life of me, I could barely feel joy, and I felt like I was just not the same anymore.

Two months after this happened I left for Air Force basic training and it was so physically and emotionally intense I did not even have time to think about this dopamine issue anymore. The less I thought about it, the more it started to go away. I was no longer completely convinced I had done something to my dopamine levels and I started to feel like my old self again at the end of basic training. My mood returned, and I look back on this event and laugh to myself, I was absolutely convinced I had done something to my dopamine levels/receptors with Risperdal and I was no longer going to be the same person as I used to be. I returned back to normal 100% despite being absolutely convinced I was not the same person as I used to be. The mind is a very powerful thing, your thoughts will shape your reality, mind-body connection is no joke.

 

[Vitamin_C]

//However, I do not get the same effects from caffeine and adderall//

Its called tolerance, I have to drink near 700mg of caffeine now to get the same effects as I used to. If I quit caffeine for a couple months completely then come back, I can get a caffeine buzz off 120mg of caffeine.

 

[nurselyfe]

//However, I do not get the same effects from caffeine and adderall//

Its called tolerance, I have to drink near 700mg of caffeine now to get the same effects as I used to. If I quit caffeine for a couple months completely then come back, I can get a caffeine buzz off 120mg of caffeine.

Its the opposite for me. My tolerance dropped heavily, I used to drink a pot of coffee a day, stove cooked so it was extremely strong. Now I can barely drink a cup. But what I was referring too was it mood enhancing effects I used to get. It ended in late May after I crashed my estrogen. I don't see a coincidence. Same with adderall.

 

[nurselyfe]

I'll share a little story with you guys. When I was 21 I took a couple of my brothers friends Risperdals, about 2-3mg worth because he said it would help me "study and focus" more. That night I felt absolutely terrible, couldnt sleep, rigid legs, a weird buzz in my head, felt that the joy and life were sapped out of me the next morning. I was so worried that I had seriously messed up my brain and upon further research saw how these drugs alter dopamine levels. This persisted for months... For a few days I was shooting blanks during sex, had no semen come out of my penis, my mood was absolutely dull and flat. I was so worried I got an MRI (MRI showed a healthy brain). For the life of me, I could barely feel joy, and I felt like I was just not the same anymore.

Two months after this happened I left for Air Force basic training and it was so physically and emotionally intense I did not even have time to think about this dopamine issue anymore. The less I thought about it, the more it started to go away. I was no longer completely convinced I had done something to my dopamine levels and I started to feel like my old self again at the end of basic training. My mood returned, and I look back on this event and laugh to myself, I was absolutely convinced I had done something to my dopamine levels/receptors with Risperdal and I was no longer going to be the same person as I used to be. I returned back to normal 100% despite being absolutely convinced I was not the same person as I used to be. The mind is a very powerful thing, your thoughts will shape your reality, mind-body connection is no joke.

Not doubting it is a powerful thing. I've admitted here I was giving myself psychosomatic pain in my back during my early years of lifting in high school. This is not that. There's been serious physical changes that are visible for everyone to see.

 

[simeoni]

If the mild response to stimulants is just caused by tolerance then how do you explain my situation? I have a low dose test protocol; I occasionally drink one cup of coffee in the morning; I take mucuna pruriensis perhaps once a month.

What has changed after my crashes is the fact that I get absolutely no response from mucuna. It should do something. And it used to have a very strong effect in the past. After my latest crashes something changed.

You can offer "tolerance" as on option but it just doesn't seem valid in my case.

//However, I do not get the same effects from caffeine and adderall//

Its called tolerance, I have to drink near 700mg of caffeine now to get the same effects as I used to. If I quit caffeine for a couple months completely then come back, I can get a caffeine buzz off 120mg of caffeine.

 

[simeoni]

I was wondering that since we all are now exploring the hypothesis of "estrogen receptors insensitivity", perhaps you - nurselyfe - could give us a summary on this matter? What are the processes that lead to this situation - in your opinion?

You have written few sentences here and there but I think that it would be helpful to see a more detailed explanation in one post.

I want to see this theory explained in full so that I can research it's validity.

 

[nurselyfe]

I was wondering that since we all are now exploring the hypothesis of "estrogen receptors insensitivity", perhaps you - nurselyfe - could give us a summary on this matter? What are the processes that lead to this situation - in your opinion?

You have written few sentences here and there but I think that it would be helpful to see a more detailed explanation in one post.

I want to see this theory explained in full so that I can research it's validity.

I can offer you at theory, but it'd be pure speculation. Even if I was right on the mechanism, you would not find any literature on it. This is the problem at hand. Theoretically, arimidex should absolutely not cause any persistent issues; its a reversible inhibitor of aromatase. I do not think it was the arimidex itself that caused it.


I believe that there was some autoimmune negative feedback on the receptor and its post translational products. Think about it in a way that a wire has been tripped. There are ton of different co-regulators and proteins that mediate how nuclear receptors work, a lot can go wrong. I can't say I've brought my estrogen to zero and this is what caused it because I'm sure many guys have done the same and this didn't happen to them.

I believe that it is most likely epigenetic etiology. We were not born with a congenital condition and it is extremely hard to alter the genome.

This is simply speculation but I gave it the best I had. I think it's better to think about what we do know.

1. There are a vast amount of people who have used different kinds of inhibitors that now have persistent side effects after stopping the drug. E.g Finasteride, Accutane, SSRI's, and now, AI's.

2. It seems that the persistent side effects are quite specific towards what was inhibited. People who have persistent side effects from Finasteride can still get estrogenic side effects but have problems in the tissues that are androgen dependent. E.g penis shrinkage, testicular shrinkage, zero libido, impotence, loss of beard growth, bone loss, pelvic/prostatic pain, muscle wastage, loss of oil production on scalp, no energy, horrible sleep. I still have all my energy, can grow a thick beard, I have little libido, no shrinkage, but I have many low estrogen symptoms such as dry skin and unhealthy looking skin, complete loss of sebum production, scalp hair loss that is diffuse, loss of 50% hair on my arms and legs, but the hairs that still grow, grow fast, extremely flat muscles, loss of blood flow (less veins, get cold easily, lower blood pressure 128/82 to 114/65), gaining fat easily, no pumps, skin doesn't get flushed anymore like it used to do when I worked out, cold/clammy skin, slow nail growth, loss of appetite, loss of aggression, loss of nipple puffiness that accompanied high estrogen levels (no tissue growth though), loss of mild lactation, difficulty connecting to others, sometimes feel derealization, short term memory loss, and some anhedonia.

3. The severity of this was inducible. I didn't have half of these symptoms back in June/July, but every time I increased my estrogen, existing symptoms got worse, and new symptoms appeared. Guys who claim androgen insensitivity from PFS, say the exact same thing as me- increasing androgens makes their symptoms worse, and usually permanently.

4. I've used arimidex for the last 3 years. I've gone a little too low on E2 before using slightly higher doses of arimidex. Never has it gave me persistent side effects, and any side effects that I would get from low estrogen, would resolve in 4-5 days maximum. The persistent side effects that I have currently, have never occurred in my life. IT wasn't until I used large amounts of arimidex, 3-4x the amount I usually did, did this incident occur.

 

[Vitamin_C]

If the mild response to stimulants is just caused by tolerance then how do you explain my situation? I have a low dose test protocol; I occasionally drink one cup of coffee in the morning; I take mucuna pruriensis perhaps once a month.

What has changed after my crashes is the fact that I get absolutely no response from mucuna. It should do something. And it used to have a very strong effect in the past. After my latest crashes something changed.

You can offer "tolerance" as on option but it just doesn't seem valid in my case.

To each their own, I never felt anything off Macuna but I still take it because I like the beneficial effects on the body, but I never "felt" it before. For me Macuna was like taking a multi-vitamin or Probiotic.

I think you guys should try high CBD oil concentrate, fix your guts, and try CDNUTS PFS recovery protocol.

 

[nurselyfe]

To each their own, I never felt anything off Macuna but I still take it because I like the beneficial effects on the body, but I never "felt" it before. For me Macuna was like taking a multi-vitamin or Probiotic.

I think you guys should try high CBD oil concentrate, fix your guts, and try CDNUTS PFS recovery protocol.

What do you mean fix our guts? What is making you think my gut isn't optimal?