A Cautionary Tale...

[LionTamer]

TLDR: I fucked up my hormones because I didn't listen to everyone on the site, and now I'm paying the price. Stay away from hormone treatments if not medically necessary.

Hi Everyone,

I'm here to post a follow up to two posts I made a couple of years back as a cautionary tale to others who are thinking of going down the same path as did I. I just don't want others to make the same mistake I did.

• TRT to Supraphysiological Levels for Body Building
• Clomid and Sex Drive / Libido

Long story short: I came on here back in 2022 because I was looking for some shortcuts to gaining muscle in the gym. My T levels were normal (even high). Many on this site told me to stay away from unnecessary treatments that would mess with my hormones, but I didn't listen and ended up taking clomid. I then took anastrozole to counteract the estradiol spike. The anastrozole crashed my libido and caused ED. I stopped shortly after, but I've never quite been the same. Ever since taking it, my libido has fluctuated but with an overall downward trend. And now it's very low and almost nonexistent.

Many of the below people told me to stay away, but I was stubborn and didn't listen.

• @Phil Goodman
• @DixieWrecked
• @Nelson Vergel
• @DS3
• @Simbarn

To all of you guys: you were right, I was wrong, and I'm sorry I didn't listen. I return to you humbled. I think I owe it to you guys to tell you that you were right and also to tell anyone else who's reading the same. To others, learn from my mistakes, not your own.

The reasons for the low libido aren't clear but, if you'd like to take a look at my attached labs, I think the pattern is:

• Decreased free testosterone: this I think is likely most indicative, because my libido fluctuates likely in line with this marker that also fluctuates. [Note that the units changed when I switched from Labcorp to Quest but I think they’re just adjusted by a factor of 10.]
• Lower estradiol.
• Higher SHGB.

This combination is correlated with low libido. My doctor (not a TRT clinic, but an actual doctor) put me back on clomid to see if that helps. If it doesn't I think I'll be forced to go on TRT, which is what I really was hoping to avoid. But I may not have a choice.

If anyone has any thoughts or advice, I'm all ears as well.

All in all: guys, don't mess with your hormones for cosmetic enhancement. Just not worth the risk.

 

[LionTamer]

Additional users to whom I owe the same shoutout (it didn't let me tag more than 5 people):

• @readalot
• @bixt
• @BigTex
• @DannyLou2676

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Hey @LionTamer

Don't beat yourself up too much. We all make mistakes! That is how we learn!

What are your natural total and free T after 8-10 weeks of being off everything? How about your sensitive E3 and DHT?

 

[aloetard]

Thank you for taking the time to post that @LionTamer. I gave you hours of my life in that thread because I care. I appreciate you and wish you a full recovery.

BTW, I am currently on 200 mg/week of Test Cyp plus 100 mg/week Nandrolone D. The slippery slope of anabolics use will always be very slippery for some. But I guess everyone has to have at least one bad habit (rationalizing)

Best wishes.

 

[LionTamer]

Thank you for taking the time to post that @LionTamer. I gave you hours of my life in that thread because I care. I appreciate you and wish you a full recovery.

BTW, I am currently on 200 mg/week of Test Cyp plus 100 mg/week Nandrolone D. The slippery slope of anabolics use will always be very slippery for some. But I guess everyone has to have at least one bad habit (rationalizing)

Best wishes.

Thank you!

 

[LionTamer]

Hey @LionTamer

Don't beat yourself up too much. We all make mistakes! That is how we learn!

What are your natural total and free T after 8-10 weeks of being off everything? How about your sensitive E3 and DHT?

Thanks for the kind words Nelson. I appreciate the willingness to help. Here's a breakdown. I've been off everything for over a year now. Attached are my labs over time in case you'd like to look at the fluctuations. June 2022 was when I was on the clomid. I think it's the combination of low free T and high SHBG that's the culprit.

• Total T: 753
• Free T: 8.75 (used to 15-16 before clomid)
• DHT: 43
• Estradiol: 18
• SHBG: 44 (used to be 37 before clomid)
• E3: not measured. Should I get it measured?

 

[sammmy]

I doubt your low libido is due to your experimenting with clomid and anastrazole, unless you took insane doses.

The body should have restored to homeostasis when you stopped. Some other process must be at play - nervous system perhaps.

If you have libido problem at your high testosterone (and your SHBG is not THAT high), it is very doubtful TRT will help you with libido, except during the initial honeymoon period.

 

[sammmy]

Thanks for the kind words Nelson. I appreciate the willingness to help. Here's a breakdown. I've been off everything for over a year now. Attached are my labs over time in case you'd like to look at the fluctuations. June 2022 was when I was on the clomid. I think it's the combination of low free T and high SHBG that's the culprit.

• Total T: 753
• Free T: 8.75 (used to 15-16 before clomid)
• DHT: 43
• Estradiol: 18
• SHBG: 44 (used to be 37 before clomid)
• E3: not measured. Should I get it measured?

Assuming your albumin is standard 4.3 g/dL, your calculated free T is 14.3 ng/dL. Not that low at all.

Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator

 

[LionTamer]

I doubt your low libido is due to your experimenting with clomid and anastrazole, unless you took insane doses.

The body should have restored to homeostasis when you stopped. Some other process must be at play - nervous system perhaps.

If you have libido problem at your high testosterone (and your SHBG is not THAT high), it is very doubtful TRT will help you with libido, except during the initial honeymoon period.

Thanks for the reply. Got it. So what do you suggest then? My free T may not be very low objectively, but it is MUCH lower than it used to be and my SHBG is higher. My thought is that there's a material difference from before making this a unique imbalance *for me*.

How would I test my nervous system?

My albumin is 4.7 as of my last test, by the way.

 

[sammmy]

Use the free T calculator and compare your free testosterone for Feb-22 to June-24. I don't think they are very different so you can't blame how you feel on free testosterone.

If you have to learn one thing from this forum, it is that you CANNOT compare different tests for free testosterone by dividing units etc. Better use the calculator to compare.

I suggest you stop all unnecessary supplements, "optimization" BS, and unnecessary drugs to see what your true natural state is of your libido.

 

[LionTamer]

Use the free T calculator and compare your free testosterone for Feb-22 to June-24. I don't think they are very different so you can't blame how you feel on free testosterone.

I suggest you stop all unnecessary supplements, "optimization" BS, and unnecessary drugs to see what your true natural state is of your libido.

I used the free T calculator. It was 15.2 then vs. 13.7 now. So, according to this calculator, not much of a difference. But the labs say otherwise, so I don't know...

And I already have stopped all supplements and medications. That's the issue. I've been off everything for over a year. This is my "new normal", and I'm trying to fix it...

 

[sammmy]

The labs do not say otherwise, they have different ranges and as I said you CANNOT compare different tests for free testosterone. The only way to compare is through the calculator.

If you have been off everything for a year, why is your vit D level still high? When I say stop everything I mean ALL supplements even the "vitamins" that you think cannot do harm.

 

[LionTamer]

The labs do not say otherwise, they have different ranges and as I said you CANNOT compare different tests for free testosterone. The only way to compare is through the calculator.

If you have been off everything for a year, why is your vit D level still high? When I say stop everything I mean ALL supplements even the "vitamins" that you think cannot do harm.

I see. Well if you count OTC vitamins and supplements, I'm still on vitamin D, CoQ10 (to counteract muscle loss from cholesterol medication), a multivitamin, and fish oil. Do you really think any of these could play a role? I find it highly unlikely, but open to your thoughts.

 

[sammmy]

Could statins be the reason for my lack of libido?

Our expert answers a question on the relation between the side effect of statins and a lack of sex drive.

www.bhf.org.uk

 

[aloetard]

Thank you!

Report back after a few years. I shared my experience; I sincerely hope you have a better experience. Make sure you make the decision with informed consent

I give you credit. You did report back. I'll take a look at your numbers.

 

[sammmy]

I suggest you try to achieve health in a natural way through the natural food you eat and a healthy lifestyle, not with drugs, vitamins, or unnatural supplements. Then, you may regain your libido.

It is not reasonable to expect your body to function in a natural way when you take a bunch of completely unnatural drugs and supplements. And then to "fix" that you want to take more drugs. And then you will need other drugs to counteract the side effects of the previous drugs and that continues endlessly.

 

[LionTamer]

Could statins be the reason for my lack of libido?

Our expert answers a question on the relation between the side effect of statins and a lack of sex drive.

www.bhf.org.uk

Interesting. I'm reading more into it. It appears that statins can affect libido specifically through hormone interference. So if my hormones are fine (as you say they are, or if I fix them through clomid or TRT), then, theoretically, they shouldn't be the cause or should be counteracted? Additionally they cause low libido by lowering coq10 levels, which I'm supplementing. In any case, I've been on statins for years now, long before my libido issues began...

 

[LionTamer]

I give you credit. You did report back. I'll take a look at your numbers.

Thank you!

 

[sammmy]

Interesting. I'm reading more into it. It appears that statins can affect libido specifically through hormone interference. So if my hormones are fine (as you say they are, or if I fix them through clomid or TRT), then, theoretically, they shouldn't be the cause or should be counteracted? Additionally they cause low libido by lowering coq10 levels, which I'm supplementing. In any case, I've been on statins for years now, long before my libido issues began...

The truth is they are only guessing that statins affect libido by "lowering testosterone" and it is the most stupid guess possible because they think libido = testosterone, while in reality libido is governed by gazilion factors outside testosterone.

Your triglicerides are low excellent which means you don't eat lots of carbs. Why do you take statins? The risk for cardiovascular disease is due to carb consumption, high blood sugar that damages blood vessels, NOT high LDL.

 

[aloetard]

Your reported FT labs appear a mix the "direct" IA and other methods. If you go back and look you should be able to tease out what lab was what. You can definitely compare them all if you share what was what and make sure you get your units right. Would be getting into the weeds as almost no one keeps track of these correctly. It's not a simple factor of 10 conversion. I agree that using cFTV as scorekeeper is fine. So you never used exogenous T and yet still ended up with issues, wow.

Nothing jumps out on your bloodwork. You are about where you started on sec hormones. You didn't mess up your HPTA. What other drugs are you taking?