20 y/o - Testicular recovery after 2 years post DHT use

[Alessandro27]

Hey, maybe some of you already knew me here on the forum with another nick.

I'm Alessandro and I'm 19. About 2 years ago, when I was just a foolish and insecure teen, I played and joked with roids and specifically I took a DHT compound for 6 weeks, I knew almost nothing about roids world and I took the whole idea lightly.
By the sixth week I got testicular atrophy and I never recovered...
It was a shock, a nasty surprise, I immediately went to andrologists and specialists here in Italy, I explained everything to them and I did a lot of blood tests.
The tests showed hormonal values in the lower range, as well as my testicular volumes, except for E2 which was in the higher range, but all the doctors I saw told me that there was nothing to do and that a DHT compound taken for 6 weeks could not cause testicular atrophy or similar... So they just told me to follow a healthy lifestyle, that things would fix in 6 months and they sent me home.
I also ran a spermiogram and it showed a mild oligospermia with 15 mil/ml.
This because here in Italy the doctors are way behind and unfamiliar with TRT and steroids use, it's not like in America or other countries.
So I listened to the docs and didn't follow any PCT, I tried to take Clomid and Nolvadex for a few days on my own but they gave me bad effects.

Two years is a long time, too long, my libido, my hard-on, my nuts, my semen and strength never fully recovered, my social and personal life has been fucked up and I feel like my joy has been taken away. Me and my family have been through some very bad times.
But I've never given up or got depressed in all this time, I've read and studied, searched on many bodybuilding forums and talked to different people, my diet and lifestyle has improved a lot and I've made positive progress.
However I feel that I need to give like a surge to my hpta to recover completely. Something that can reverse testicular atrophy and restore cells permanently.
I am thinking about HMG, I consider it a better alternative to HCG for some reasons, it contains real LH that seems to induce more cell growth and proliferation compared to HCG that induce more steroidogenesis and apoptosis, as suggested by this study conducted on ovarian function but which can be compared to testicular function.
https://www.excemed.org/sites/default/files/l15_simoni.pdf
In addition, LH has a shorter half-life than HCG and this means less aromatization, pituitary gland suppression and potential desensitization of leydig cells than HCG and ultimately it contains FSH that working in synergy with LH can restore testicular volume and sperm count, its high price is not a problem so I'd go with HMG.

Tell me yours, I need your advice, thank you very much.

 

[Cataceous]

There's an informative article that you should read: Anabolic Steroid Side Effects- Part 4 (Final)

Particularly interesting is that GnRH or its analogs seem to help in some cases.

 

[Alessandro27]

There's an informative article that you should read: Anabolic Steroid Side Effects- Part 4 (Final)

Particularly interesting is that GnRH or its analogs seem to help in some cases.

Very interesting article, I have some questions:
The article talks about SERMs and says that Nolvadex is the best choice for some reasons.
I wonder, can you use an AI like Exemestane instead of a SERM to induce the release of GnRH as well as the gonadotropins ?
Nolvadex blocks estrogen receptors while Exemestane reduces overall estrogen level, so they would trick the hypothalamus and pituitary in the same way, isn't it?

I've never followed a proper PCT and I'd prefer to try, as first choice, a period with HMG to recover the testicles and since HMG is suppressive for hypothalamus and pituitary, I'd follow it with a period with Nolvadex or Exemestane at low dosage to recover them.
I would also take high doses of vitamin E to support the process.
Effect of vitamin E on function of pituitary-gonadal axis in male rats and human subjects. - PubMed - NCBI
If this doesn't help, then I'll wait and try with a GnRH agonist.

Between HCG and HMG which do you think is better in my case? The price is not a problem.
Thank you

 

[Cataceous]

Very interesting article, I have some questions:
The article talks about SERMs and says that Nolvadex is the best choice for some reasons.
I wonder, can you use an AI like Exemestane instead of a SERM to induce the release of GnRH as well as the gonadotropins ?
Nolvadex blocks estrogen receptors while Exemestane reduces overall estrogen level, so they would trick the hypothalamus and pituitary in the same way, isn't it?
...
Between HCG and HMG which do you think is better in my case? The price is not a problem.
Thank you

You can use AIs instead of SERMS, and there's even at least one study showing it works. But overall it's a bad idea because of the negative health effects of excessive estradiol suppression.

If I could afford it I'd try using HMG instead of hCG. But even if you can afford it I'm not sure it's practical. First, you'd need much larger doses than what are usually used for fertility. I'd guess at least 150-300 IU per day. But even this might not be enough to achieve normal intratesticular testosterone. With hCG it takes about 300 IU EOD to do that. But hCG is effectively much stronger, with one presentation citing a figure of 6-8 times more effective on a per-IU basis. A single daily injection of FSH seems to work to stimulate Sertoli cells, but it's not clear that a single daily pulse of short-acting LH would adequately stimulate the Leydig cells.

I agree that hCG is a nuisance because of its strong effect on estradiol, but if I were doing a restart I would include some with the HMG.

 

[Alessandro27]

You can use AIs instead of SERMS, and there's even at least one study showing it works. But overall it's a bad idea because of the negative health effects of excessive estradiol suppression.

If I could afford it I'd try using HMG instead of hCG. But even if you can afford it I'm not sure it's practical. First, you'd need much larger doses than what are usually used for fertility. I'd guess at least 150-300 IU per day. But even this might not be enough to achieve normal intratesticular testosterone. With hCG it takes about 300 IU EOD to do that. But hCG is effectively much stronger, with one presentation citing a figure of 6-8 times more effective on a per-IU basis. A single daily injection of FSH seems to work to stimulate Sertoli cells, but it's not clear that a single daily pulse of short-acting LH would adequately stimulate the Leydig cells.

I agree that hCG is a nuisance because of its strong effect on estradiol, but if I were doing a restart I would include some with the HMG.

Can I know why I should use such large doses of HMG than those used for fertility?

There are no guidelines on HMG dosing for PCT on Internet.
I've only found one article where it says that 75IU ED or EOD for PCT would be enough and that higher doses have not any better effect.
Feida - Shenzhen Biotechnology Co.,Ltd

 

[Cataceous]

Can I know why I should use such large doses of HMG than those used for fertility?
...

This only applies if you're not taking hCG, because as I explained above, single small doses of the LH in HMG might not be very effective. But the combination of relatively large doses of hCG with the smaller doses of HMG—for the FSH content—has proved to be effective.

 

[Alessandro27]

This only applies if you're not taking hCG, because as I explained above, single small doses of the LH in HMG might not be very effective. But the combination of relatively large doses of hCG with the smaller doses of HMG—for the FSH content—has proved to be effective.

Okay I got that, but you think 75 IU of HMG alone per day has no effect on restoring testicular size and leydig cells?

Since, as you say, HMG is a short-acting LH pulse with much lower half-life and strength than HCG, would it give less suppression on the hypothalamus and pituitary than HCG? Or am I wrong?
If so, it would facilitate my following period with Nolvadex during the second part of PCT.
Thank you.

 

[antelopers]

There's an informative article that you should read: Anabolic Steroid Side Effects- Part 4 (Final)

Particularly interesting is that GnRH or its analogs seem to help in some cases.

Reading that just made me worried that I have done long term damage to my hpta that would only be recovered if I came off.

 

[Cataceous]

Okay I got that, but you think 75 IU of HMG alone per day has no effect on restoring testicular size and leydig cells?

Since, as you say, HMG is a short-acting LH pulse with much lower half-life and strength than HCG, would it give less suppression on the hypothalamus and pituitary than HCG? Or am I wrong?
If so, it would facilitate my following period with Nolvadex during the second part of PCT.
Thank you.

Taking 75 IU of HMG per day will definitely stimulate the Sertoli cells to an extent, and the single daily pulse of LH will stimulate the Leydig cells by some unknown amount. But I expect that overall the effect would be considerably less than if you took the HMG along with 300 IU hCG EOD.

You are right about HMG being less suppressive to the HPTA than hCG. This ties into its reduced propensity to stimulate estradiol production. These features make it interesting and potentially useful. If it weren't so expensive I'd be experimenting with it.

 

[Cataceous]

Reading that just made me worried that I have done long term damage to my hpta that would only be recovered if I came off.

We get quite a few guys reporting that they get back to their pre-TRT states within a couple months of stopping TRT. So while permanent dysfunction is a possibility, at least anecdotally it appears to be the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Alessandro27]

Taking 75 IU of HMG per day will definitely stimulate the Sertoli cells to an extent, and the single daily pulse of LH will stimulate the Leydig cells by some unknown amount. But I expect that overall the effect would be considerably less than if you took the HMG along with 300 IU hCG EOD.

You are right about HMG being less suppressive to the HPTA than hCG. This ties into its reduced propensity to stimulate estradiol production. These features make it interesting and potentially useful. If it weren't so expensive I'd be experimenting with it.

My idea is to start with 75IU of HMG per day for a few days and see if my testicles recover their size, if nothing happens then I add some HCG as you advised me.

 

[Alessandro27]

In your opinion how many days should I run HMG? I am thinking about 10 days or 2 weeks followed by 10 mg nolvadex ED for another 10 days or 2 weeks.
Any thoughts?
Thanks

 

[Cataceous]

My impression is that testicular recovery takes longer than a couple weeks. Probably more like a month or two, at least.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

DHT blocks LH and FSH. It can take up to 4 months to recover HPTA function after short term use. I would just take 25 mg clomiphene every day for 4 weeks and let it be. Then at week 8 run a panel like this one:

Post PCT Panel

 

[Alessandro27]

My impression is that testicular recovery takes longer than a couple weeks. Probably more like a month or two, at least.

Okay I get it, and instead for how many days should I take Nolvadex to recover hypothalamus and pituitary after about a month of HMG?

 

[Alessandro27]

DHT blocks LH and FSH. It can take up to 4 months to recover HPTA function after short term use. I would just take 25 mg clomiphene every day for 4 weeks and let it be. Then at week 8 run a panel like this one:

Post PCT Panel

Before taking Clomid or Nolvadex I'd try HMG or if it doesn't work HCG, to recover testicular size.
Surely I' ll run a panel after the HMG and SERM period.

 

[Cataceous]

I'd go at least 30-60 days. You might be interested in reading this article about restarting on Defy's site.

 

[Alessandro27]

I'd go at least 30-60 days. You might be interested in reading this article about restarting on Defy's site.

So I should run 30-45 days on HMG/HCG followed by 30-45 days on Nolvadex.
After the whole 60-90 day period I wait 2 weeks and run blood tests.
Right?

 

[Cataceous]

So I should run 30-45 days on HMG/HCG followed by 30-45 days on Nolvadex.
After the whole 60-90 day period I wait 2 weeks and run blood tests.
Right?

Seems like a reasonable restart protocol to me...

 

[Alessandro27]

Seems like a reasonable restart protocol to me...

ok thanks for your advices