18 Year-Old With Testicular Atrophy

[Lobo00]

Hello everyone, I am 18 years old and 1 year ago run a 7 week cycle with transdermal DHT (like Andractim).
At the seventh week i stopped because i saw my testicles shrinking.
I was an idiot..

It's been 1 year since i stopped but my testicular size and sperm has not recovered.
My hypothesis is that my testicles (LH receptors on Leydig cells) became desensitized to LH because they did not received any LH signals for 7 weeks.

The blood tests of 2 months ago say :
LH : 5.0
FSH : 1.9
TT : 600 ng/dl
E2 : 41 pg/ml
Inhibin B : 217.2 pg/ml
AMH : 18.9 ng/ml
Prolactin : 9.5 ng/ml
My current testicular sizes are 12 ml and 10.5 ml. Before running DHT cycle, (1 year ago) they were larger (15-16 ml).

The fact that LH (5.0) is high compared to Testosterone (600), suggests that leydig cells do not respond as they should to LH signal in producing testosterone.
This supports the hypothesis of Leydig cells desensitized to LH…

I wonder if HCG can resensitize Leydig cell receptors to LH.
You can read a lot about HCG dosages to reverse testicular atrophy but I am confused…

The things to avoid would be

- Over stimulation of LH receptors with HCG because can further desensitize LH receptors (not good for recover).
- Over stimulation of LH receptors with HCG because raises intratesticular E2 too much which cannot be managed with anastrozole (not good for recover).

I consulted some andrologists but they think that in 1 year i would recover my testicular size and therefore they don't know how to help me...
I know that on this forum there are many very good people.
What can i do to recover my testicles to their previous size?
Thanks.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Welcome to Excelmale. Can you edit in the reference ranges for all test results? Each lab establishes its own range for each test. You've engaged in no post-cycle recovery? This post reflects your natural recovery to date?

You reference your sperm. Do you mean semen volume, or have had a sperm count done?

Can HCG Stop Working After Long Term Use in Men?

This thread focuses on the invalid theory of HCG and sensitization.

 

[Lobo00]

Hi, thanks for your reply.
What do you mean by : "Can you edit in the reference ranges for all test results? "
I haven't followed any PCT, I haven't taken anything since I stopped the cycle 1 year ago because the andrologists I consulted told me to take anything and wait for my testicles to recover to their original size.
But they were wrong...
I did the sperm tests together with the blood tests 2 months ago and they say:

Volume : 4.0 ml
Continence : 62 hours
Ph : 7.5
WBC : 300/ul
Total sperm count (TSC): 15.0 Million/ml
Progressive Motility : 20%
Normal forms : 16%.
Motile sperm concentration (MSC) : 3.0mil/ml
Functional sperm concentration (FSC) : 1.2 mil/ml
Sperm motility index (SMI): 45
DNA fragmentation index (DFI) : 27%
Hyaluronic Binding Assay (HBA) : 50%.

I don't want to have children at 18 years old, my only goal is to recover my testicles to their original size / functionality...

 

[CoastWatcher]

All labs have stable established their own ranges for each lab test. In order for us to know what you a and your doctor are dealing with it is important for us to see the range for each test. For example, you posted total testosterone at 600ng/dl; where does that fall in the range provided on your lab report? The same for each test run - including your sperm study.

Thanks.

 

[Lobo00]

All labs have stable established their own ranges for each lab test. In order for us to know what you a and your doctor are dealing with it is important for us to see the range for each test. For example, you posted total testosterone at 600ng/dl; where does that fall in the range provided on your lab report? The same for each test run - including your sperm study.

Thanks.

The blood tests of 2 months ago say :

LH : 5.0 __ Range (3-7 mUI/ml)
FSH : 1.9 __ Range (3-7 mUI/ml)
TT : 600 ng/dl __ Range (300-1000 ng/dl)
E2 : 41 pg/ml __ Range (20-50 pg/ml)
Inhibin B : 217.2 pg/ml __ Range (>150pg/ml)
AMH : 18.9 ng/ml __ Range (3-7 ng/ml)
Prolactin : 9.5 ng/ml __ Range (7-18 ng/ml)
Molar Ratio T/LH : 4.16 __ Range (>5nM/UI)
Molar Ratio E2/T : 7.23 __ Range (5.5-6.5 pM/nM)
Molar Ratio AMH/T : 6.4 __ Range (<2.0 pM/nM)
My current testicular sizes are 12 ml and 10.5 ml. Before running DHT cycle, (1 year ago) they were larger (15-16 ml).
I don't own ranges for sperm tests but they're not good results.

I am young and I absolutely want to recover my testicles and possibly also my sperm.
On this forum you say that HCG can recover atrophied testicles post cycle.
I would like to understand what the correct doses are, I was thinking 350IU EOD,
What do you think?
Thank you.

 

[Cataceous]

Can you get a prescription for Clomid/clomiphene? For somebody young this might be the better choice for trying to get your system back on track. Doses should be kept reasonable, starting from 12.5 mg EOD to no more than 25 mg ED.

 

[Vince]

I agree I definitely would go on low dose clomid, young men have great success with clomid.

 

[Lobo00]

Clomid can recover fertility and spermatogenesis but does something to recover the testicular size?

 

[Vince]

Clomid can recover fertility and spermatogenesis but does something to recover the testicular size?

It will definitely increase your testicles. You should be able to at least double your LH. Here's a nice thread that may interest you.

Are guys that do well on low dose clomid unicorns...or do they really exist?

 

[Vince]

"FrankUnderwood, post: 34839, member: 12752"]at 25mg/daily my testes felt like they were going to explode. 50mg twice daily would turn them into the size of the goodyear blimp.

Clomid: What Every Man Needs to Know

 

[Lobo00]

"FrankUnderwood, post: 34839, member: 12752"]at 25mg/daily my testes felt like they were going to explode. 50mg twice daily would turn them into the size of the goodyear blimp.

Clomid: What Every Man Needs to Know

In the thread I read : "it isn't really a matter of increasing number of leydig cells per se, but more so increasing the ACTIVITY of the leydig cells. Without adequate stimulation, the leydig cells atrophy (can down-regulate receptors as well) and significantly decrease their hormone production. Anyone with a significant decrease in the NUMBER of leydig cells likely has a strong PRIMARY hypogonadism and wouldn't benefit much from Clomid therapy in the first place. Whereas someone with a SECONDARY hypogonadism, where the leydig cells weren't being stimulated enough and may have atrophied/down-regulated receptors, thus decreasing testosterone production, may benefit from Clomid through increasing LH stimulation of the leydig cells and regaining ACTIVITY (not necessarily number) of the leydigs. "


My testicles during those 7 weeks on DHT have become atrophied.
My question is : When the testicles become atrophied, it means that a certain number of Leydig cells died, right?
Does this mean that my number of leydig cells has decreased compared to before the cycle, right?

 

[Vince]

I don't believe that is the case for you. If you wish you could try both HCG and clomid. The only way you'll know if it will work, is my trying.

Your leydig cells did not die.

 

[Lobo00]

I don't believe that is the case for you. If you wish you could try both HCG and clomid. The only way you'll know if it will work, is my trying.

Your leydig cells did not die.

So how do you explain testicular volume reduction on a cycle? How can an organ be shrunk without cells dying?

 

[Lobo00]

In your opinion, if I would take HCG at 150IU ED for a few weeks, would I see my testicles recover their size?
Their current size is 10.5ml and 12ml and I am 18 years old.
Is there any hope that HCG will work?
I'm very worried, I've tried 12.5 mg of Clomid for 2 days but it gives me vision problems and mental confusion.

 

[madman]

So how do you explain testicular volume reduction on a cycle? How can an organ be shrunk without cells dying?

LH stimulates the leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone and FSH stimulates the sertoli/germ cells to produce sperm.

When one uses exogenous testosterone/AAS it results in shutdown of the hpta and the pituitary no longer secretes LH/FSH and the leydig cells/seminiferous tubules atrophy.

The leydig cells only make up 10-20% of testicular volume as oppose to the seminiferous tubules (where sperm is produced) make up almost 80% so a majority of the shrinkage results from atrophy of the seminiferous tubules.

 

[Lobo00]

LH stimulates the leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone and FSH stimulates the sertoli/germ cells to produce sperm.

When one uses exogenous testosterone/AAS it results in shutdown of the hpta and the pituitary no longer secretes LH/FSH and the leydig cells/seminiferous tubules atrophy.

The leydig cells only make up 10-20% of testicular volume as oppose to the seminiferous tubules (where sperm is produced) make up almost 80% so a majority of the shrinkage results from atrophy of the seminiferous tubules.

OK but do you think that it is more effective HCG or SERM to recover testicular size that has shrunk on cycle?

 

[Cataceous]

OK but do you think that it is more effective HCG or SERM to recover testicular size that has shrunk on cycle?

In line with @madman's post, if you use hCG then you might consider adding HMG or FSH to maximize results. Empower offers lyophilized FSH. The unknowns are whether you would see improvements and whether any improvements would be retained after ending treatment or switching to a SERM.

 

[Lobo00]

In line with @madman's post, if you use hCG then you might consider adding HMG or FSH to maximize results. Empower offers lyophilized FSH. The unknowns are whether you would see improvements and whether any improvements would be retained after ending treatment or switching to a SERM.

I'll try to get FSH even if it's expensive.
I will also talk to my current andrologist about it.
What doses of HCG do you recommend to recover testicular size in my case?
I know that too much HCG could desensitize the leydig cells and give too much aromatization.

 

[Lobo00]

It will definitely increase your testicles. You should be able to at least double your LH. Here's a nice thread that may interest you.

Are guys that do well on low dose clomid unicorns...or do they really exist?

A few months ago I tried Clomid for 2 days at 25 mg but I had to stop because it gave me severe visual problems and mental confusion.
Is Nolvadex not good?

 

[Cataceous]

I'll try to get FSH even if it's expensive.
I will also talk to my current andrologist about it.
What doses of HCG do you recommend to recover testicular size in my case?
I know that too much HCG could desensitize the leydig cells and give too much aromatization.

Leydig cell desensitization is not an issue at normal doses. Setting aside aromatization, my guess is you should be looking for the dose that maximizes testosterone production. This undoubtedly varies among individuals, but according to one hCG modeling paper, with EOD dosing the peak is likely to occur in the range of 250 to 1,000 IU. Ideally you would start on the lower side, like 300-400 IU EOD, and work up slowly, measuring testosterone to ensure production doesn't decrease. Things may be a little confusing in the beginning because you will have an additive effect with LH until it's suppressed.