Post TRT - Libido is DEAD :(

[Vince]

Research consistently shows that a low testosterone threshold requirement exists for libido and sexual function. I believe they found the TT level for this to be in the 400s. Thus testosterone has some veto power over libido, but it alone is not sufficient to guarantee it, regardless of the level. Other hormones and neurotransmitters clearly play a role.



Please do not take this as any kind of personal attack. You need to ask people close to you to give an honest assessment of your cognitive state. This is may be the fourth or fifth time I've had to correct you on this false statement. I hope it's just that your life is so busy and full that details like this don't stick. But the repetition after many corrections gives me pause. So once again, I personally find higher testosterone levels to be dulling and demotivating; they do not provoke anxiety.



To also repeat, on the lowest testosterone doses to date, along with supplementation with gondorelin and kisspeptin-10, libido issues seem to have resolved. Libido was low on higher doses of testosterone, particularly before I tried to counter some of the effects of HPTA suppression.



You suggest I say otherwise, but won't be able to find a single example. The reality is that my recommendations to others are relatively mainstream and practical; you try the easier and safer things first, and then if there are still problems your try other things. With TRT this means trying short-acting testosterone first, then conventional TRT with midrange testosterone levels, then hCG, then higher or lower levels, etc.

As you recall, the late Dr. Crisler was an early and strong proponent of a low-and-slow approach to TRT. This is not arbitrary; it is a sensible approach, in line with clinical guidance, that spares many men from a lot of misery.

I wish you wouldn't talk about Dr. Crisler. It's terrible what happened to him and I'm sure his testosterone levels had nothing to do with it.

L

Thread 'Dr. John Crisler HCG T protocol in its entirety'

Jul 28, 2024

This protocol FYI is very difficult to find now that Dr. Crisler has sadly passed on due to suicide.

Here it is in its entirety for those who have not seen it before:

Crisler HCG protocol

By John Crisler, DO

In my paper “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men”, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows...

• Lance69
• dr crisler hcg + trt
• Replies: 1
• Forum: Testosterone Basics & Questions

• 

 

[Phil Goodman]

I see a statement that 100 mg per week is better than 200 mg/2 weeks, not that it's some ideal starting protocol. On the contrary, they say, "In general, smaller dosages at more frequent intervals are preferred over high, less frequent administrations to limit the duration of time spent outside (above or below) the normal reference range."

The fact is that 100 mg/week puts most men above the physiological range, both peak and average levels. There's no good reason to start at this dose, and especially not at higher doses.

I see a statement that 100 mg per week is better than 200 mg/2 weeks, not that it's some ideal starting protocol. On the contrary, they say, "In general, smaller dosages at more frequent intervals are preferred over high, less frequent administrations to limit the duration of time spent outside (above or below) the normal reference range."

The fact is that 100 mg/week puts most men above the physiological range, both peak and average levels. There's no good reason to start at this dose, and especially not at higher doses.

Go to this link:

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/103/5/1715/4939465?login=false

Hit ctrl + f and type 100. It says the traditional starting dose is 75-100 mg per week or 150-200 mg every two weeks.


From the link you quoted from above, go to this table and tell me what it recommends as a starting dose:

https://www.auanet.org/documents/Guidelines/PDF/Table%20Two%20Dosing%20Profiles%20of%20Testosterone%20Formulations%20.pdf

Spoiler alert…


It’s 100 mg. I have pointed this out to you over 10 times now… so which is it; do you see it and refuse to admit it, or do you refuse to even look at it at all so you can continue to plead ignorance to it??

 

[Phil Goodman]

I wish you wouldn't talk about Dr. Crisler. It's terrible what happened to him and I'm sure his testosterone levels had nothing to do with it.

L

Thread 'Dr. John Crisler HCG T protocol in its entirety'

Jul 28, 2024

This protocol FYI is very difficult to find now that Dr. Crisler has sadly passed on due to suicide.

Here it is in its entirety for those who have not seen it before:

Crisler HCG protocol

By John Crisler, DO

In my paper “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men”, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows...

• Lance69
• dr crisler hcg + trt
• Replies: 1
• Forum: Testosterone Basics & Questions

• 

I wish you wouldn't talk about Dr. Crisler. It's terrible what happened to him and I'm sure his testosterone levels had nothing to do with it.

L

Thread 'Dr. John Crisler HCG T protocol in its entirety'

Jul 28, 2024

This protocol FYI is very difficult to find now that Dr. Crisler has sadly passed on due to suicide.

Here it is in its entirety for those who have not seen it before:

Crisler HCG protocol

By John Crisler, DO

In my paper “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men”, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows...

• Lance69
• dr crisler hcg + trt
• Replies: 1
• Forum: Testosterone Basics & Questions

• 

I think there is a key point here which is always conveniently ignored by the people who use his approach as a shining example of what should be aimed for…



He recommends HCG for ALL trt patients. So let me get this straight…. He maximizes natural production of testosterone, then adds extra on top of it via trt… and THIS is the beacon of excellence for why low doses are ideal for everyone?? And why you should try to never go above what is physiological? Man, the argument falls apart more and more with each page of this thread. Lol.


Also, he(Chrisler) recommends weekly dosing of testosterone. That is the more frequent dosage that he and others(like the ones @Cataceous referenced) suggest. That’s another thing Cataceous ignores… 100 mg is the lower dose and weekly injections are the more frequent in pretty much all the materials because they are going against outdated approach of 200 every 2 weeks.


I’ve pointed out repeatedly what the sources that @Cataceous shared recommend… and they don’t say what he thinks they do. Now here we see Chrisler suggesting weekly injections and also using HCG to push natural production to its limit before putting more testosterone on top of it. I’ve seen exactly ZERO things to support the argument made for starting people off on 50-75 mg and TONS of evidence for why 100-120 is much more likely to provide better results for patients.

 

[Cataceous]

You're funny. I was just repeating what you said when you first started TRT and your levels were high. It gave you anxiety and you struggled with libido and still struggle with libido. I do read some of the stuff that you post so there's no reason to deny it. It's nothing to be ashamed of or something you should hide from. Be honest with everyone and everyone will be honest with you.

Ok Vince, find one post where I said TRT caused anxiety. It's unclear why you would continue to think this after multiple denials. It would be better if you were just trolling, but oddities in some of your other posts also make me wonder. In any case, if people close to you think all is well then I'll just chalk it up to your idiosyncrasies and inattention to detail.

I wish you wouldn't talk about Dr. Crisler. It's terrible what happened to him and I'm sure his testosterone levels had nothing to do with it.
...

Dr. Crisler was in some ways a TRT pioneer. I mentioned his support for a low-and-slow approach to dosing, which admittedly is just argument form authority. But you want to veer off into his unfortunate personal story rather than just honor him by talking about his contributions to the field.

 

[Vince]

Ok Vince, find one post where I said TRT caused anxiety. It's unclear why you would continue to think this after multiple denials. It would be better if you were just trolling, but oddities in some of your other posts also make me wonder. In any case, if people close to you think all is well then I'll just chalk it up to your idiosyncrasies and inattention to detail.



Dr. Crisler was in some ways a TRT pioneer. I mentioned his support for a low-and-slow approach to dosing, which admittedly is just argument form authority. But you want to veer off into his unfortunate personal story rather than just honor him by talking about his contributions to the field.

You're still funny, a quick search.

"Personally, TRT greatly reduced my anxiety, making things better all around. Mismatched libidos is somewhat of an issue, but it could easily be worse. No question that my marriage would be worse off if I weren't on TRT."

With a quick search of your past posts. This all I can find for now I'm using my cell phone like I usually do. I'm at work. Hope you're working hard too, but still you're funny guy.

 

[Vince]

Ok Vince, find one post where I said TRT caused anxiety. It's unclear why you would continue to think this after multiple denials. It would be better if you were just trolling, but oddities in some of your other posts also make me wonder. In any case, if people close to you think all is well then I'll just chalk it up to your idiosyncrasies and inattention to detail.



Dr. Crisler was in some ways a TRT pioneer. I mentioned his support for a low-and-slow approach to dosing, which admittedly is just argument form authority. But you want to veer off into his unfortunate personal story rather than just honor him by talking about his contributions to the field.

It's funny that you forgot that you're the one who mentioned the great late Dr. Crisler constantly. Not me.

 

[Cataceous]

...
Hit ctrl + f and type 100. It says the traditional starting dose is 75-100 mg per week or 150-200 mg every two weeks.
...

It’s 100 mg. I have pointed this out to you over 10 times now… so which is it; do you see it and refuse to admit it, or do you refuse to even look at it at all so you can continue to plead ignorance to it??

I've already explained how the 100 mg TC/week figure is a historical accident, now obsolete, but still capitalized on by the more-is-better crowd.

Here's the bottom line: You cannot point to a single peer-reviewed study or major medical association recommendation to dose TRT to above-physiological levels at all, let alone only at the start. In contrast, and in line with common medical practice pertaining to hormones in general, peer-reviewed studies and medical associations recommend dosing TRT to attain midrange testosterone levels.

You studiously avoid responding to quotes that clearly contradict you: "In general, smaller dosages at more frequent intervals are preferred over high, less frequent administrations to limit the duration of time spent outside (above or below) the normal reference range."

Your recommendations result in tangible harm, as I have documented. You haven't offered even anecdotal evidence for harm resulting from starting TRT at midrange levels.

Just admit you're wrong and be done with it.

 

[Cataceous]

You're still funny, a quick search.

"Personally, TRT greatly reduced my anxiety, making things better all around. ...

I'm sure you've heard the expression, "When you're in a hole, at least stop digging."

It's funny that you forgot that you're the one who mentioned the great late Dr. Crisler constantly. Not me.

You are not in any way lessening my concerns about your cognition. Seriously, have someone you trust read this recent exchange and give you an honest opinion.

 

[Vince]

I'm sure you've heard the expression, "When you're in a hole, at least stop digging."



You are not in any way lessening my concerns about your cognition. Seriously, have someone you trust read this recent exchange and give you an honest opinion.

Haha I am concerned about yours.

You really have to learn that everyone's not the same. You've been here long enough. You have to start learning. It may be your anxiety or maybe your OCD. I don't think you have dementia but it may be the start of it.

 

[Phil Goodman]

I've already explained how the 100 mg TC/week figure is a historical accident, now obsolete, but still capitalized on by the more-is-better crowd.

Lolwut?? How are you showing that it’s obsolete when the links you shared show that it is the recommended starting dose??

Here's the bottom line: You cannot point to a single peer-reviewed study or major medical association recommendation to dose TRT to above-physiological levels at all, let alone only at the start.

Lmfao…. I (as well as you yourself) have both pointed to a major medical association which lists 100 mg as the recommended starting dose. At this point you are either trolling or are retarded. How can you not see that their recommended starting dose is 100??

In contrast, and in line with common medical practice pertaining to hormones in general, peer-reviewed studies and medical associations recommend dosing TRT to attain midrange testosterone levels.

You studiously avoid responding to quotes that clearly contradict you: "In general, smaller dosages at more frequent intervals are preferred over high, less frequent administrations to limit the duration of time spent outside (above or below) the normal reference range."

Yeah… to LIMIT. Not “avoid at all costs!!”. Taking smaller doses more frequently(and by smaller I mean 100 mg per week or 50 mg twice per week) are preferred over larger less frequent doses. I’ve already shown multiple studies that CLEARLY show the levels seen from doing at 50 mg per week. Doing 25 mg twice per week doesn’t resolve the issue of making the patients weaker, fatter, and more frail. You’ve never shown this to be the case. Again… stop being retarded about this.

Your recommendations result in tangible harm, as I have documented. You haven't offered even anecdotal evidence for harm resulting from starting TRT at midrange levels.

Just admit you're wrong and be done with it.

Again… just lmfao at you being so obtuse you can’t see what is clearly in front of your face.


So I’ll just try one last thing to try and explain it to you, though at this point I imagine it’s not very likely to work…


You know how you view Vince for saying trt causes you anxiety?? That’s how people view your responses in this debate for failing to acknowledge what is clearly right in front of your face. Again, you should’ve taken the L a long time ago. Unless of course you’ve just been trolling this whole time(which is becoming more and more likely with each response from you)…. Which if that’s the case then I give you a 9/10 for the troll job because you have been great in that regard.