Experiences and Questions: Personal Experiments with Oral Native Testosterone Base & Enclomiphene (TRT+)

[dirkdigglr]

Hi,

Since Maximus TRT+ (oral native Testosterone with enclomiphene) isn't available here, I created my own version using micronized native testosterone powder dissolved in 30g of olive oil, combined with enclomiphene. I've conducted two separate experiments:

Baseline / Context:

• Healthy male, athletic, non-obese, late 30s
• Daily exercise: ~40 min running, 30 min full-body training (rack, Olympic barbell)
• Total cholesterol: ~100 (on low-dose statin + ezetimibe), lipoproteine(a) 121 nmol/l (reference: <75 nmol/l)
• Diet notable for high consumption of broccoli and cauliflower (potentially lowering E2?)
• No thyroid issues, values normal

Baseline Hormonal Levels:

• Total T: ~500 ng/dl
• LH: 4.9 IU/L
• Estradiol (E2): 20.2 pg/ml
• SHBG: 42 nmol/l
• Free Testosterone (calculated): ~76 pg/ml (1.49% of total T)
• Albumin: 4.27 g/dl

Experiment 1 (Enclomiphene only, 6 mg every 3 days for 3 months):

• Total T: ~850 ng/dl
• LH: ~13 IU/L
• Estradiol (E2): 43.6 pg/ml
• SHBG: 80.5 nmol/l
• Free Testosterone (calculated): ~101 pg/ml (1.23% of total T)
• DHEA: 10.9 ng/ml (1.33 - 7.78 ng/ml)
• DHEA-sulfate: 430,0 µg/dl (88,9 - 427 µg/dl)
• Albumin: 4.76 g/dl

This protocol felt significantly better than my baseline.

Experiment 2 (4 weeks of micronized Native Testosterone Base):

• Morning dose: 600 mg Testo Base in 30g olive oil + 6.25 mg enclomiphene
• Afternoon dose (approx. 6 hours later): 600 mg Testo Base in 30g olive oil + 6.25 mg enclomiphene

Resulting Hormonal Levels (measured 5.5 hours after morning dose):

• Total T: ~1070 ng/dl
• LH: 11.8 IU/L (note: not suppressed, despite high T and enclomiphene)
• FSH: 9.5 IU/L
• Estradiol (E2): 14.9 pg/ml (significantly lower compared to enclomiphene-only and baseline)
• SHBG: 34.2 nmol/l
• Free Testosterone (directly measured): 42.35 pg/ml (reference: 7.00 – 22.70 pg/ml)

Initially, native Testo Base felt very stimulating and beneficial. However, currently, I experience:

• Low motivation
• Exhaustion and depressive symptoms
• Emotional numbness
• Short-term memory issues
• Sleep disturbances (particularly more wakefulness and sometimes waking up around 4 AM, possibly cortisol-related)

I've tried taurine, ashwagandha, and melatonin to help manage these sleep disturbances, with some improvement noted.

I suspect the symptoms might be related to significantly reduced Estradiol (E2) levels (currently 14.9 pg/ml, compared to 43.6 pg/ml on enclomiphene-only).

I've experimented yesterday once with ingesting 0.25-0.5 mg of micronized 17β-estradiol, though unsure about its efficacy as I dont have any scale for such tiny amounts.

Additionally, I considered potential dopamine overload or tolerance reactions due to initial positive effects followed by rapid decline in mood and motivation.

EDIT: I was taking L-tyrosine at 2 × 250 mg daily. After discontinuing it yesterday, I've noticed significant improvement in my symptoms today. It appears this was a major contributor to my issues. I'm now less certain about estrogen being the sole cause. However, I'll continue supplementing with DHEA to potentially increase estrogen levels, as it's likely a combination of factors.


DHEA Intervention:

• I've started taking 50 mg micronized DHEA with oil over the last two days, but haven't observed improvements yet. (EDIT: changed it now to 50mg evening dose without oil)
• Would DHEA be more effective without oil to enhance aromatization in the liver?
• How much DHEA should I optimally take?
• Does DHEA reliably increase Estradiol (E2)? What E2 levels should I aim for?

I previously felt much better emotionally and in terms of sleep quality on enclomiphene-only despite lower testosterone levels. My goal now is to dial in the Estradiol levels appropriately while maintaining the benefits of higher free testosterone.

Any input or advice is appreciated! thx!

See attached PDF for detailed blood values from Experiment 2. Note that this was only a brief, interim blood panel conducted due to emerging symptoms and the need for quick intervention.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I suspect the symptoms might be related to significantly reduced Estradiol (E2) levels (currently 14.9 pg/ml, compared to 43.6 pg/ml on enclomiphene-only).

This is quite plausible. Your absolute level of E2 is low, the ratio of T & DHT / E2 is very high, and you have enclomiphene antagonizing estrogen receptors on top of that.

I would rather take less of something in this situation than add another compound to increase estradiol. Reducing the dose of oral testosterone would bring up the E2, reduce androgens somewhat, and improve the androgen/estrogen ratio. Reducing or removing enclomiphene would remove the estrogen antagonism and may improve symptoms even if it doesn't significantly change your levels.

If you are committed to trying to make things work without doing either of those things, you probably need to find a way to increase your E2. Taking DHEA with oil is going to promote lymphatic absorption and bypass the liver, which is not what you want to do if you are trying to maximize conversion into estrogenic metabolites. You'd better achieve that goal by taking it on an empty stomach and sending it straight to the liver.

Bear in mind, DHEA can dramatically increase androstenedione, E1 (estrone), and 7-hydroxy and 7-keto metabolites (in addition to some minor testosterone/DHT) at the same time that you are trying to increase E2. DHEA is often poorly tolerated even by men who appear to be deficient in DHEA, probably due to this propensity to metabolize into a random and unpredictable assortment of downstream hormones. It is not by any means a clean or targeted way to increase E2.

If it were me trying to fix this, without adjusting the oral T or enclomiphene, I would either use hCG to increase my E2, or simply inject some estradiol cypionate or valerate (never oral).