Why do most say other hormones deplete while on TRT?

[SS1LE]

So I been on TRT for a long while and only tried HCG a couple times early on. It honestly made me feel like garbage. I thought I would give it another try but before I started it I had my DHEA, Pregnenolone, and progesterone tested. These are the hormones that most seem to say we need to "backfill" . According to my test they are no where near being bottomed out, So where did the theory of backfilling come from?

DHEA-S 277.0 ug/dL 71.6-375.4
Progesterone 0.3 ng/mL 0.0-0.5
Pregnenolone, MS
Reference Range:
Adults: <150 - 91ng/dL

I did try HCG again recently the puretrig brand from reliablerx , tried 250iu EOD and also 125IU EOD. All it gave me is cold hands and feet , not sure why. Then after a week fatigue........no it's not E2 causing the issues. Of course I stopped using it. Really just curious on the backfill theory.

 

[Cataceous]

While it's unequivocal that exogenous testosterone can affect a large number of other hormones/precursors by disrupting various feedback loops, the argument would be that it's statistical in nature, with substantial variation between individuals. It's more clear-cut with hormones such as LH and GnRH, which are more directly influenced by endogenous testosterone. The theory is that when other hormones/precursors are clearly suppressed by TRT then it could be beneficial to restore them to at least average levels. Unfortunately there's lot's of guesswork in this, so in the end it's down to subjective results. An obvious example is the use of hCG to replace suppressed LH. A lot of guys do great with it, but others don't seem to tolerate it at all.

In your case there would seem to be little need to consider supplementation with DHEA, pregnenolone or progesterone. If any of these were low/lowish then you would have more leeway to experiment with pushing levels higher if you thought it could be helpful.

 

[Seagal]

So I been on TRT for a long while and only tried HCG a couple times early on. It honestly made me feel like garbage. I thought I would give it another try but before I started it I had my DHEA, Pregnenolone, and progesterone tested. These are the hormones that most seem to say we need to "backfill" . According to my test they are no where near being bottomed out, So where did the theory of backfilling come from?

DHEA-S 277.0 ug/dL 71.6-375.4
Progesterone 0.3 ng/mL 0.0-0.5
Pregnenolone, MS
Reference Range:
Adults: <150 - 91ng/dL

I did try HCG again recently the puretrig brand from reliablerx , tried 250iu EOD and also 125IU EOD. All it gave me is cold hands and feet , not sure why. Then after a week fatigue........no it's not E2 causing the issues. Of course I stopped using it. Really just curious on the backfill theory.

This theory was popular at excelmale
Regarding dhea, pregnenolone (the majority doesn't need to supplement it):
Post in thread 'Supraphysiologic testosterone (350 mg weekly)' Supraphysiologic testosterone (350 mg weekly) - Page 3 - Excel Male TRT Forum

I believe most issues occur only if men run T high (teenage peak levels) or higher. I think that then hormone imbalances arise and eventually HRT is needed.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

This seems to be very individual. IIRC my pregnenolone dropped from 200 ng/dL to 30 ng/dL on TRT, so a very dramatic change there, while my DHEA-S dropped somewhat less from 150-200 to 80-100 ug/dL.

 

[SS1LE]

This seems to be very individual. IIRC my pregnenolone dropped from 200 ng/dL to 30 ng/dL on TRT, so a very dramatic change there, while my DHEA-S dropped somewhat less from 150-200 to 80-100 ug/dL.

The pregnenolone lab range is odd, just <150, so they make it seem like there is no low level. Do you supplement with it?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

The pregnenolone lab range is odd, just <150, so they make it seem like there is no low level. Do you supplement with it?

No, so far my limited dabbling with both hormones only produced adverse effects. I plan to experiment with them some more in the future, perhaps in different forms like topical, but I don't think I am suffering in any major way without them.

 

[Vince]

So I been on TRT for a long while and only tried HCG a couple times early on. It honestly made me feel like garbage. I thought I would give it another try but before I started it I had my DHEA, Pregnenolone, and progesterone tested. These are the hormones that most seem to say we need to "backfill" . According to my test they are no where near being bottomed out, So where did the theory of backfilling come from?

DHEA-S 277.0 ug/dL 71.6-375.4
Progesterone 0.3 ng/mL 0.0-0.5
Pregnenolone, MS
Reference Range:
Adults: <150 - 91ng/dL

I did try HCG again recently the puretrig brand from reliablerx , tried 250iu EOD and also 125IU EOD. All it gave me is cold hands and feet , not sure why. Then after a week fatigue........no it's not E2 causing the issues. Of course I stopped using it. Really just curious on the backfill theory.

Besides getting your levels in a good range, why are you concerned? Do you not feel good on TRT.

Some members criticize my labs. But I feel so good. I don't see why I would change anything.

Most of the moderators won't even post their Labs.

Thread 'Vince's Labs from October 14, 2024'

Oct 23, 2024

Same protocol, 16 mg of testosterone cypionate daily, 500 iu of hcg every third day and no AI.

Pregnenolone 10 mg and 10 mg of DHEA.

My last injection before labs, about 27 1/2 hrs.

Labs are from LabCorp.

I did "not" get the Equilibrium Ultrafiltration for testing free testosterone. I didn't want to spend the extra money.

Testosterone, Serum 1482 ng/dL range 264-916
Free Testosterone 24.5 ng/dL range 6.6 -18.1
DHT 61 ng/dL (no range on results)
DHEA-Sulfate 260.0 H ug/dL range 30.9-295.6 (age adjusted)
Estradiol, Sensitive 26.7 pg/mL range 8.0-35.0
Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum 57.5...

• Vince
• Replies: 7
• Forum: Blood Test Discussion

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Some members criticize my labs. But I feel so good. I don't see why I would change anything.

Most of the moderators won't even post their Labs.

Some people can dish it out, but they can't take it. I applaud your courage Vince.

 

[Systemlord]

These are the hormones that most seem to say we need to "backfill" . According to my test they are no where near being bottomed out, So where did the theory of backfilling come from?

Some men see an increase in other hormones, such as IGF-1 on TRT. As for a reductions of other hormones mentioned, this is less likely in the short term. Nelsen after decades on TRT loss the perceived benefits of TRT and years earlier had tried hCG and had a negative response, years later, however the hCG brought back the benefits of TRT he had lost.

A shutdown of the HPTA asis will take decades to truly become shutdown.

 

[SS1LE]

Some men see an increase in other hormones, such as IGF-1 on TRT. As for a reductions of other hormones mentioned, this is less likely in the short term. Nelsen after decades on TRT loss the perceived benefits of TRT and years earlier had tried hCG and had a negative response, years later, however the hCG brought back the benefits of TRT he had lost.

A shutdown of the HPTA asis will take decades to truly become shutdown.

looking back at mychart app, I started TRT in 2012...13 years is pretty long

 

[SS1LE]

Besides getting your levels in a good range, why are you concerned? Do you not feel good on TRT.

Some members criticize my labs. But I feel so good. I don't see why I would change anything.

Most of the moderators won't even post their Labs.

Thread 'Vince's Labs from October 14, 2024'

Oct 23, 2024

Same protocol, 16 mg of testosterone cypionate daily, 500 iu of hcg every third day and no AI.

Pregnenolone 10 mg and 10 mg of DHEA.

My last injection before labs, about 27 1/2 hrs.

Labs are from LabCorp.

I did "not" get the Equilibrium Ultrafiltration for testing free testosterone. I didn't want to spend the extra money.

Testosterone, Serum 1482 ng/dL range 264-916
Free Testosterone 24.5 ng/dL range 6.6 -18.1
DHT 61 ng/dL (no range on results)
DHEA-Sulfate 260.0 H ug/dL range 30.9-295.6 (age adjusted)
Estradiol, Sensitive 26.7 pg/mL range 8.0-35.0
Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum 57.5...

• Vince
• Replies: 7
• Forum: Blood Test Discussion

Actually not concerned at all, was just curious in the theory you see everywhere with HCG backfilling hormones, I agree with your levels,, if you feel fine thats a bonus. Yes mods won't post labs , I can almost guarantee their levels are at or higher than yours.....but can always tell others there levels are too high

 

[Nelson Vergel]

First of all, make sure you are using LC/MS when testing for progesterone and pregnenolone if you want accurate numbers.

Scraping Excelmale :


Testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) lowers upstream hormones like progesterone and pregnenolone primarily due to its suppression of luteinizing hormone (LH), which is critical for stimulating the production of these hormones in the testes. Here’s a detailed breakdown:

### Mechanism of Hormone Suppression
1. **LH Shutdown**:
TRT introduces exogenous testosterone, which signals the pituitary gland to reduce LH production[1][4]. Since LH normally stimulates Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone and its precursors (including pregnenolone and progesterone), this suppression disrupts the entire steroidogenesis pathway[1][3][4].

2. **Impact on Upstream Hormones**:
- **Pregnenolone**: A precursor to all steroid hormones, its production in the testes declines without LH stimulation. While the adrenals can produce some pregnenolone, this is insufficient to maintain baseline levels[1][3].
- **Progesterone**: Conversion from pregnenolone is reduced due to decreased substrate availability. TRT may also impair 5α-reductase activity, an enzyme involved in converting progesterone to neuroactive metabolites like allopregnanolone[3][5].

3. **Adrenal Contribution**:
The adrenals continue producing small amounts of pregnenolone, but this does not compensate for the loss of testicular production[3].

### Clinical Evidence
- Studies show that TRT and anabolic steroids significantly reduce serum levels of pregnenolone, progesterone, and related metabolites[2][5]. For example, one study noted **~80–90% decreases in SHBG** and upstream hormones during steroid use[2].
- Measuring **17-hydroxyprogesterone (17OH-P)**, an upstream hormone, can help assess the effectiveness of therapies like hCG in restoring intratesticular testosterone (ITT). Levels below 215 ng/dL indicate impaired steroidogenesis due to LH suppression[4].

### Mitigation Strategies
- **hCG Co-Therapy**: Mimics LH to reactivate testicular hormone production, potentially normalizing upstream hormones like 17OH-P[4].
- **Pregnenolone/Progesterone Supplementation**: Some users report improved cognitive function and sleep with supplementation, though individual responses vary[1][5].

In summary, TRT-induced LH suppression disrupts the testicular production of upstream hormones, necessitating monitoring and potential adjunct therapies to address deficiencies[1][3][4][5].

Sources
[1] Anyone here taking progesterone? Anyone here taking progesterone? - Excel Male TRT Forum
[2] Pregnenolone for Men: What We Need to Know Pregnenolone for Men: What We Need to Know - Excel Male TRT Forum
[3] TRT Effect on 5 Alpha Reductase and Upstream Hormones TRT Effect on 5 Alpha Reductase and Upstream Hormones- Cause of Low Mood and Anxiety? - Excel Male TRT Forum
[4] Best hCG Dose with TRT: 17-Hydroxyprogesterone Lab Test Best hCG Dose with TRT: 17-Hydroxyprogesterone Lab Test - Excel Male TRT Forum
[5] Pregnenolone and Progesterone for Men Pregnenolone and Progesterone for Men: Pharmacokinetics and Studies - Excel Male TRT Forum
[6] Pregnenolone 101: What You Need to Know About this ... Pregnenolone 101: What You Need to Know About this Precursor Hormone - Excel Male TRT Forum
[7] Effect of TRT vs hCG/FSH on upstream hormone pathways. Effect of TRT vs hCG/FSH on upstream hormone pathways. - Excel Male TRT Forum
[8] Comparison of Intratesticular Testosterone between Men ... https://www.excelmale.com/attachments/2074wjmh_wjmh-41-390-pdf.31586/
[9] Pregnenolone makes high dose Testosterone tolerable Pregnenolone makes high dose Testosterone tolerable - Page 9 - Excel Male TRT Forum
[10] TRT and immune system TRT and immune system - Excel Male TRT Forum
[11] Progesterone in Men Progesterone in Men - Excel Male TRT Forum
[12] TRT and Pregnenolone TRT and Pregnenolone - Excel Male TRT Forum
[13] Low DHEA-S levels while on TRT Low DHEA-S levels while on TRT - Excel Male TRT Forum
[14] Progesterone for sleep Progesterone for sleep - Excel Male TRT Forum
[15] Help determining proper pregnenolone dosage and ... Help determining proper pregnenolone dosage and frequency - Excel Male TRT Forum
[16] The Benefits of Estrogen in BodyBuilding The Benefits of Estrogen in BodyBuilding - Excel Male TRT Forum
[17] Low progesterone? Frustrated. Thinking of pulling the plug ... Low progesterone? Frustrated. Thinking of pulling the plug on TRT for good. - Excel Male TRT Forum
[18] Progesterone: the forgotten hormone in men? https://www.excelmale.com/attachments/oettel-04-progesterone-men-am_1313008091-pdf.10531/
[19] Could the ratio of progesterone to estradiol affect water ... Could the ratio of progesterone to estradiol affect water retention in men on TRT? - Page 2 - Excel Male TRT Forum
[20] Relationship between insulin resistance, estradiol ... Relationship between insulin resistance, estradiol, aromatase, testosterone replacement, and water retention - Excel Male TRT Forum

 

[SS1LE]

Testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) lowers upstream hormones like progesterone and pregnenolone primarily due to its suppression of luteinizing hormone (LH), which is critical for stimulating the production of these hormones in the testes. Here’s a detailed breakdown:

This is what I am referring to, it should be there worded as there is a chance of it happening. I searched reddit\forums and plenty of other posted labs of normal values with no HCG\supplement use.

 

[Seagal]

This is what I am referring to, it should be there worded as there is a chance of it happening. I searched reddit\forums and plenty of other posted labs of normal values with no HCG\supplement use.

Exactly that has been the problem here. It sounds like it's damn sure that something is broken "this suppression disrupts the entire steroidogenesis pathway[1][3][4]."

 

[Wolverine]

First of all, make sure you are using LC/MS when testing for progesterone and pregnenolone if you want accurate numbers.

Scraping Excelmale :


Testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) lowers upstream hormones like progesterone and pregnenolone primarily due to its suppression of luteinizing hormone (LH), which is critical for stimulating the production of these hormones in the testes. Here’s a detailed breakdown:

### Mechanism of Hormone Suppression
1. **LH Shutdown**:
TRT introduces exogenous testosterone, which signals the pituitary gland to reduce LH production[1][4]. Since LH normally stimulates Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone and its precursors (including pregnenolone and progesterone), this suppression disrupts the entire steroidogenesis pathway[1][3][4].

2. **Impact on Upstream Hormones**:
- **Pregnenolone**: A precursor to all steroid hormones, its production in the testes declines without LH stimulation. While the adrenals can produce some pregnenolone, this is insufficient to maintain baseline levels[1][3].
- **Progesterone**: Conversion from pregnenolone is reduced due to decreased substrate availability. TRT may also impair 5α-reductase activity, an enzyme involved in converting progesterone to neuroactive metabolites like allopregnanolone[3][5].

3. **Adrenal Contribution**:
The adrenals continue producing small amounts of pregnenolone, but this does not compensate for the loss of testicular production[3].

### Clinical Evidence
- Studies show that TRT and anabolic steroids significantly reduce serum levels of pregnenolone, progesterone, and related metabolites[2][5]. For example, one study noted **~80–90% decreases in SHBG** and upstream hormones during steroid use[2].
- Measuring **17-hydroxyprogesterone (17OH-P)**, an upstream hormone, can help assess the effectiveness of therapies like hCG in restoring intratesticular testosterone (ITT). Levels below 215 ng/dL indicate impaired steroidogenesis due to LH suppression[4].

### Mitigation Strategies
- **hCG Co-Therapy**: Mimics LH to reactivate testicular hormone production, potentially normalizing upstream hormones like 17OH-P[4].
- **Pregnenolone/Progesterone Supplementation**: Some users report improved cognitive function and sleep with supplementation, though individual responses vary[1][5].

In summary, TRT-induced LH suppression disrupts the testicular production of upstream hormones, necessitating monitoring and potential adjunct therapies to address deficiencies[1][3][4][5].

Sources
[1] Anyone here taking progesterone? Anyone here taking progesterone? - Excel Male TRT Forum
[2] Pregnenolone for Men: What We Need to Know Pregnenolone for Men: What We Need to Know - Excel Male TRT Forum
[3] TRT Effect on 5 Alpha Reductase and Upstream Hormones TRT Effect on 5 Alpha Reductase and Upstream Hormones- Cause of Low Mood and Anxiety? - Excel Male TRT Forum
[4] Best hCG Dose with TRT: 17-Hydroxyprogesterone Lab Test Best hCG Dose with TRT: 17-Hydroxyprogesterone Lab Test - Excel Male TRT Forum
[5] Pregnenolone and Progesterone for Men Pregnenolone and Progesterone for Men: Pharmacokinetics and Studies - Excel Male TRT Forum
[6] Pregnenolone 101: What You Need to Know About this ... Pregnenolone 101: What You Need to Know About this Precursor Hormone - Excel Male TRT Forum
[7] Effect of TRT vs hCG/FSH on upstream hormone pathways. Effect of TRT vs hCG/FSH on upstream hormone pathways. - Excel Male TRT Forum
[8] Comparison of Intratesticular Testosterone between Men ... https://www.excelmale.com/attachments/2074wjmh_wjmh-41-390-pdf.31586/
[9] Pregnenolone makes high dose Testosterone tolerable Pregnenolone makes high dose Testosterone tolerable - Page 9 - Excel Male TRT Forum
[10] TRT and immune system TRT and immune system - Excel Male TRT Forum
[11] Progesterone in Men Progesterone in Men - Excel Male TRT Forum
[12] TRT and Pregnenolone TRT and Pregnenolone - Excel Male TRT Forum
[13] Low DHEA-S levels while on TRT Low DHEA-S levels while on TRT - Excel Male TRT Forum
[14] Progesterone for sleep Progesterone for sleep - Excel Male TRT Forum
[15] Help determining proper pregnenolone dosage and ... Help determining proper pregnenolone dosage and frequency - Excel Male TRT Forum
[16] The Benefits of Estrogen in BodyBuilding The Benefits of Estrogen in BodyBuilding - Excel Male TRT Forum
[17] Low progesterone? Frustrated. Thinking of pulling the plug ... Low progesterone? Frustrated. Thinking of pulling the plug on TRT for good. - Excel Male TRT Forum
[18] Progesterone: the forgotten hormone in men? https://www.excelmale.com/attachments/oettel-04-progesterone-men-am_1313008091-pdf.10531/
[19] Could the ratio of progesterone to estradiol affect water ... Could the ratio of progesterone to estradiol affect water retention in men on TRT? - Page 2 - Excel Male TRT Forum
[20] Relationship between insulin resistance, estradiol ... Relationship between insulin resistance, estradiol, aromatase, testosterone replacement, and water retention - Excel Male TRT Forum

Thanks Nelson: In your opinion, what is the optimal level of progesterone in men and what is the best way to raise it (direct progesterone or pregnenolone)? I've gotten labs at Labcorp and Quest. Quest's progesterone range is <1.4 ng/ml and Labcorp's is 0-.5 ng/ml. Only Quest list the testing method: Pl-mCnc. Thanks!

 

[SS1LE]

Thanks Nelson: In your opinion, what is the optimal level of progesterone in men and what is the best way to raise it (direct progesterone or pregnenolone)? I've gotten labs at Labcorp and Quest. Quest's progesterone range is <1.4 ng/ml and Labcorp's is 0-.5 ng/ml. Only Quest list the testing method: Pl-mCnc. Thanks!

my opinion there is no optimal level on any hormone, just ranges to go by. Some men need middle of the road, some need the lower end, and some need 2x the range. In terms of prog, my level was .3 on LabCorp. I tried some prog cream and it turned me into a angry a$$hole.