Advice on low dose daily testosterone

Charliebizz · Nov 24, 2020

S1W said:
No, not currently. My levels on 60mg E3.5D tend to be around TT 900 and E2 47 at trough.

Recently, however, I've been thinking about adding an AI just to see if it makes a difference for the better.

Sorry for so many questions but how do you feel overall with your current protocol. What if any positives vs negatives are you having ?

S1W · Nov 25, 2020

Charliebizz said:
Sorry for so many questions but how do you feel overall with your current protocol. What if any positives vs negatives are you having ?

No problem - that's what this forum is all about.

I guess I like it overall - I've tried a lot of different things and this is what I seem to come back to/where I feel best. It is certainly more convenient than EOD and daily, so I guess in a way I'm happy those didn't work out for me lol.

Since this thread was originally about low dose daily, I should note the following. Ironically, people talk about increasing injection frequency to lower E2 - it did the exact opposite for me. E2 went up as an absolute number, as a ratio to TT/FT, etc etc. It happened when I tried EOD and daily, and at various different doses for each (all lower in weekly total compared to E3.5D). My E2 on those protocols consistently STAYS at the level where it peaks on E3.5D (I've tested my peak numbers on this E3.5D protocol just out of curiousity).

I guess the biggest downside is that I do believe the dose is a bit high overall, and I worry about carrying high levels of E2 24/7 and what long term effects, if any, there might be from that. I'd actually like to try increasing my dose a bit, but of course I suspect any E2 and HCT sides would just be even more pronounced. I've also experienced high HCT and slightly elevated BP on this protocol in the past.

My dilemma in all of this is that in order to get any symptom relief from TRT, it seems like I need to run higher than normal levels. I often hear guys talking about how midrange is best, 500s/600s...that just wouldn't even be worth it for me (I've tried that). I used Accutane in the past and often wonder if that has something to do with it...like there is some built in extra hurdle hormonally because of whatever damage Accutane caused, and the higher levels are needed to overcome that threshold.

Charliebizz · Nov 25, 2020

S1W said:
No problem - that's what this forum is all about.

I guess I like it overall - I've tried a lot of different things and this is what I seem to come back to/where I feel best. It is certainly more convenient than EOD and daily, so I guess in a way I'm happy those didn't work out for me lol.

Since this thread was originally about low dose daily, I should note the following. Ironically, people talk about increasing injection frequency to lower E2 - it did the exact opposite for me. E2 went up as an absolute number, as a ratio to TT/FT, etc etc. It happened when I tried EOD and daily, and at various different doses for each (all lower in weekly total compared to E3.5D). My E2 on those protocols consistently STAYS at the level where it peaks on E3.5D (I've tested my peak numbers on this E3.5D protocol just out of curiousity).

I guess the biggest downside is that I do believe the dose is a bit high overall, and I worry about carrying high levels of E2 24/7 and what long term effects, if any, there might be from that. I'd actually like to try increasing my dose a bit, but of course I suspect any E2 and HCT sides would just be even more pronounced. I've also experienced high HCT and slightly elevated BP on this protocol in the past.

My dilemma in all of this is that in order to get any symptom relief from TRT, it seems like I need to run higher than normal levels. I often hear guys talking about how midrange is best, 500s/600s...that just wouldn't even be worth it for me (I've tried that). I used Accutane in the past and often wonder if that has something to do with it...like there is some built in extra hurdle hormonally because of whatever damage Accutane caused, and the higher levels are needed to overcome that threshold.

that's what's crazy seems no one size fits all even if we are in similar situations. I've been seeing an increasing number of guys with low shbg actually doing better with higher doses. I'm slowly gonna work my up and see if I can find a dose that makes me feel better more consistantly

Gunga · Nov 26, 2020

Bigd99ss said:
How long have you been on this protocol ? I just switched to daily of 12mg my shbg is 12-15

Quite some time. 9 months or so. I also use 1 click 100mg/ml cream daily as well. I recently tried lowering it to 8mgs daily but I also started Finasteride and I think the combination lowered my Androgen load too much. Going back to 10 mgs plus cream. I like the stable levels and ease of titration of AI as I dose armidex eod.

GreenMachineX · Nov 29, 2020

I’m considering a more frequent protocol myself. I’ve been using 50mg twice per week for a couple years which kept trough around ~500 after dropping first from 80mg twice per week to 60mg twice per week but both had HCT way too high. I’m also a very low shbg guy. In the past couple weeks, I’ve dropped to 40mg E3D in an effort to fix my middle of the night wakings. I’m considering maybe 25mg EOD, but I don’t know. I still have garbage sleep with 40mg E3D sometimes.

EDIT: I’m also not convinced it’s the testosterone screwing my sleep up, but I am pretty convinced that too much testosterone was causing a strange hypersensitivity to all drugs and supplements...and I mean all. Even zinc would give me brain fog.

gerardo · Jan 10, 2021

S1W said:
No problem - that's what this forum is all about.

I guess I like it overall - I've tried a lot of different things and this is what I seem to come back to/where I feel best. It is certainly more convenient than EOD and daily, so I guess in a way I'm happy those didn't work out for me lol.

Since this thread was originally about low dose daily, I should note the following. Ironically, people talk about increasing injection frequency to lower E2 - it did the exact opposite for me. E2 went up as an absolute number, as a ratio to TT/FT, etc etc. It happened when I tried EOD and daily, and at various different doses for each (all lower in weekly total compared to E3.5D). My E2 on those protocols consistently STAYS at the level where it peaks on E3.5D (I've tested my peak numbers on this E3.5D protocol just out of curiousity).

I guess the biggest downside is that I do believe the dose is a bit high overall, and I worry about carrying high levels of E2 24/7 and what long term effects, if any, there might be from that. I'd actually like to try increasing my dose a bit, but of course I suspect any E2 and HCT sides would just be even more pronounced. I've also experienced high HCT and slightly elevated BP on this protocol in the past.

My dilemma in all of this is that in order to get any symptom relief from TRT, it seems like I need to run higher than normal levels. I often hear guys talking about how midrange is best, 500s/600s...that just wouldn't even be worth it for me (I've tried that). I used Accutane in the past and often wonder if that has something to do with it...like there is some built in extra hurdle hormonally because of whatever damage Accutane caused, and the higher levels are needed to overcome that threshold.

What a thing. I just came out of an old protocol that made my testicles atrophy, little sperm, increased my E2, decreased SHBG, hematocrit was heights. I took an injection of Nebido every 3 months. Now I started 20Mg testosterone cypionate every other day. I've applied it 4 times, 80Mg. Now it is to observe, but before your report I was thinking. Since our body produces a quantity of testosterone, the interesting thing would be to find a replacement dose in which we let our body produce what it could, leaving LH, FSH and others in the ranges we had before starting TRT. Maybe it's a dream?

Cataceous · Jan 11, 2021

gerardo said:
... Since our body produces a quantity of testosterone, the interesting thing would be to find a replacement dose in which we let our body produce what it could, leaving LH, FSH and others in the ranges we had before starting TRT. Maybe it's a dream?

This concept is somewhat applicable to primary hypogonadism, but less so to secondary. One of the posters over at PeakTestosterone has primary hypogonadism and tunes his TRT dose to achieve normal levels of LH and FSH. Of course because he's primary he doesn't make much, if any of his own testosterone.

In secondary hypogonadism there's commonly dysregulation at the hypothalamus or pituitary. This manifests as a low natural set point for testosterone. If you try to correct the situation with small amounts of exogenous testosterone then the body reduces its own testosterone production. In fact exogenous testosterone provides greater negative feedback than natural testosterone so you end up worse off than when you started. Only full replacement of natural production can raise serum levels in these situations.

In the case of hypothalamic dysfunction it's still possible to "let our body produce what it could", but most would find the procedure impractical. The combination of a SERM and frequent doses of GnRH allows direct stimulation of the pituitary, resulting in endogenous LH, FSH and testosterone, even in the presence of exogenous testosterone.

gerardo · Jan 11, 2021

Cataceous said:
This concept is somewhat applicable to primary hypogonadism, but less so to secondary. One of the posters over at PeakTestosterone has primary hypogonadism and tunes his TRT dose to achieve normal levels of LH and FSH. Of course because he's primary he doesn't make much, if any of his own testosterone.

In secondary hypogonadism there's commonly dysregulation at the hypothalamus or pituitary. This manifests as a low natural set point for testosterone. If you try to correct the situation with small amounts of exogenous testosterone then the body reduces its own testosterone production. In fact exogenous testosterone provides greater negative feedback than natural testosterone so you end up worse off than when you started. Only full replacement of natural production can raise serum levels in these situations.

In the case of hypothalamic dysfunction it's still possible to "let our body produce what it could", but most would find the procedure impractical. The combination of a SERM and frequent doses of GnRH allows direct stimulation of the pituitary, resulting in endogenous LH, FSH and testosterone, even in the presence of exogenous testosterone.

My Fsh and LH are practically zeroed. I stopped the old protocol and started the new protocol. So this combination would be very good, because testicular atrophy and too little sperm are too harmful. Would the use of HCG be indicated? But there is the issue of E2 that increases and my hematrocyte as well.

Cataceous · Jan 11, 2021

gerardo said:
My Fsh and LH are practically zeroed. I stopped the old protocol and started the new protocol. So this combination would be very good, because testicular atrophy and too little sperm are too harmful. Would the use of HCG be indicated? But there is the issue of E2 that increases and my hematrocyte as well.

HCG replaces the missing LH, but its long half-life can give us problems with estradiol. The high hematocrit is mainly a function of the testosterone dose, though there can be other factors, such as sleep apnea. High hematocrit is less likely if serum testosterone is kept at realistic levels, say 500-800 ng/dL.

Willyt · Jan 11, 2021

Cataceous said:
This concept is somewhat applicable to primary hypogonadism, but less so to secondary. One of the posters over at PeakTestosterone has primary hypogonadism and tunes his TRT dose to achieve normal levels of LH and FSH. Of course because he's primary he doesn't make much, if any of his own testosterone.

In secondary hypogonadism there's commonly dysregulation at the hypothalamus or pituitary. This manifests as a low natural set point for testosterone. If you try to correct the situation with small amounts of exogenous testosterone then the body reduces its own testosterone production. In fact exogenous testosterone provides greater negative feedback than natural testosterone so you end up worse off than when you started. Only full replacement of natural production can raise serum levels in these situations.

In the case of hypothalamic dysfunction it's still possible to "let our body produce what it could", but most would find the procedure impractical. The combination of a SERM and frequent doses of GnRH allows direct stimulation of the pituitary, resulting in endogenous LH, FSH and testosterone, even in the presence of exogenous testosterone.

I can attest to this. Last year I tried microdosing cypionate EOD out of curiosity. It suppressed my natural production and I ended up feeling worse than my pre-TRT baseline.

Indy57 · Jan 11, 2021

14mg /daily Test Cyp here. Been on that dose forever and doing great. I’m typically in the high 800’s - to low900s on that dose and feel great. E2 of 36 at last bloodwork. I highly recommend daily shots to be very one on TRT-

Indy

gerardo · Jan 11, 2021

Cataceous said:
O HCG substitui o LH ausente, mas sua meia-vida longa pode nos causar problemas com o estradiol. O alto hematócrito é principalmente uma função da dose de testosterona, embora possa haver outros fatores, como apnéia do sono. O hematócrito alto é menos provável se a testosterona sérica for mantida em níveis realistas, digamos 500-800 ng / dL.

There are those who say that from year to year Trt must stop so that the HPA axis recovers because the long-term impact of Trt on the pituitary and hypothalamus is unknown. Very complicated because this stop at Trt is not always good.

gerardo · Jan 11, 2021

Indy57 said:
14mg /daily Test Cyp here. Been on that dose forever and doing great. I’m typically in the high 800’s - to low900s on that dose and feel great. E2 of 36 at last bloodwork. I highly recommend daily shots to be very one on TRT-

Indy

How nice. How was your sperm and testicular atrophy?
How long have you been with 14Mg / day? Did you measure your LH and FSH?

madman · Jan 11, 2021

Willyt said:
I can attest to this. Last year I tried microdosing cypionate EOD out of curiosity. It suppressed my natural production and I ended up feeling worse than my pre-TRT baseline.

No surprise here!

madman · Jan 11, 2021

gerardo said:
How nice. How was your sperm and testicular atrophy?
How long have you been with 14Mg / day? Did you measure your LH and FSH?

No need to test LH/FSH as the hpta is shutdown!

gerardo · Jan 11, 2021

madman said:
No need to test LH/FSH as the hpta is shutdown!

What are the side effects of this long-term suppression and what measures do we have to take to improve it?

Indy57 · Jan 11, 2021

gerardo said:
How nice. How was your sperm and testicular atrophy?
How long have you been with 14Mg / day? Did you measure your LH and FSH?

On that dose for over a year. Nuts are slightly smaller not sure about sperm atrophy. Have not measured LH
Indy

madman · Jan 11, 2021

gerardo said:
What are the side effects of this long-term suppression and what measures do we have to take to improve it?

Shut down of the hpta: impact on upstream hormones, testicular atrophy, reduced fertility is a given!

Effect of TRT vs hCG/FSH on upstream hormone pathways. - Excel Male Health Forum

The role of gonadotropins in testicular and adrenal androgen biosynthesis pathways -insights from males with congenital hypogonadotropic hypogonadism on hCG/rFSH and on testosterone replacement SUMMARY Objective: To delineate the role of gonadotropins in male androgen biosynthesis pathways...

www.excelmale.com

*may have long term consequences for health and wellbeing. Specifically, body composition, bone health, glucose, and lipid metabolism, salt and water balance, cognition, mood, sleep, and sexual function could be affected.

A replacement regimen with combined hCG/rFSH mimics physiologic steroid hormone profiles better than a substitution with exogenous testosterone. The documented differences in steroid profiles on testosterone replacement in hypogonadal males with absent or severely reduced endogenous LH and FSH secretion may have long term consequences for health and wellbeing. Specifically, body composition, bone health, glucose, and lipid metabolism, salt and water balance, cognition, mood, sleep, and sexual function could be affected. The steroidogenic differences could also be relevant for gonadotropin-suppressive treatments with long-acting testosterone preparations in males with primary hypogonadism. To what extent this hypothesis is true, should be addressed in future clinical studies.

madman · Jan 11, 2021

Rock Crusher said:
I been on TRT for a 5 months when I first started I was on hcg now is has run out. I don't feel any different from when I was on it. Is hcg needed?

My reply (post#15)

Depends on the individual.....Is hCG needed?

To preserve/maintain fertility then yes.

To prevent/minimize testicular atrophy then yes.

To enhance mood/libido than it is not a given as some may experience such effects whereas others may feel worse-off.

To maintain upstream hormones and possibly prevent long-term consequences for health/well-being.....you be the judge!