Doc just prescribed me 100mg weekly of Deca for joint pain and a bad shoulder. my current protocol is Test Cyp 180mg weekly (pin eod). I am a seasoned lifter. 38 years old. about 12% bf. Pull 500 pound deadlifts for reps. Since starting TRT about a year ago I have put on about 7-10 pounds of muscle but hat has plateaued. My question is, what kind of gains will I see from 100mg of Deca. How much lean mass is possible? Strength? fat loss? etc.
If you have any experiences, first or second hand please let me know. If you could do me a favor and keep this thread on track and not deviate from the topic I would be very grateful. Thank you in advance.
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5. Ancillary Benefits and Side Effects:
Frequently Asked Questions
If you have any experiences, first or second hand please let me know. If you could do me a favor and keep this thread on track and not deviate from the topic I would be very grateful. Thank you in advance.
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Briefing Document: Deca Gains - Expectations and Realities (Excel Male TRT Forum)
Date: October 26, 2023 Source: Excerpts from "Deca Gains. What to expect - Excel Male TRT Forum"I. Executive Summary
This document summarizes key discussions from an online forum thread regarding the use of Nandrolone (Deca) at therapeutic doses, primarily for joint pain, in conjunction with Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT). The central theme revolves around managing expectations for muscle gain, strength increase, and fat loss when using Nandrolone at lower, medically prescribed doses (50-100mg/week) versus higher, bodybuilding-centric doses (200-600mg/week). While some anecdotal evidence suggests mild improvements in body composition, strength, and overall well-being, the consensus is that therapeutic doses of Deca are primarily for symptom management (e.g., joint pain relief) rather than significant anabolic effects. Potential side effects and monitoring of blood markers are also discussed.II. Main Themes and Key Insights
1. Therapeutic vs. Anabolic Dosing of Nandrolone (Deca):- Definition: The most crucial distinction made throughout the discussion is between "therapeutic" and "steroid" doses of Nandrolone.
- Therapeutic Dose: 50-100mg/week is considered a therapeutic dose, primarily prescribed for joint pain and bone health. "No one is using 100mg/week of nandrolone for the sole purpose of muscle enhancement/strength gains." - madman, Super Moderator
- Anabolic/Steroid Dose: 200mg/week and above (up to 300-600mg/week) is considered the minimum range for significant muscle and strength gains. "200-200+mg/week is the minimum dose needed where one would start to reap the true muscle-building potential of nandrolone." - madman, Super Moderator
- Expectation Management: Users are strongly advised not to expect substantial muscle mass, strength, or fat loss at therapeutic doses. Gains will be "minimal when compared to using the steroid doses needed for moderate-significant gains in muscle mass." - madman, Super Moderator
- Nandrolone is commonly prescribed for joint pain, as in the case of the thread starter, DixieWrecked, who received 100mg weekly for "joint pain and a bad shoulder."
- The mechanism involves increased joint lubrication, fluid retention, and increased collagen.
- Important Caveat: Nandrolone "does not heal damaged tendons which in most cases is tendinosis (degeneration) from wear/tear, aging. Nandrolone will just mask the symptoms." - madman, Super Moderator Symptoms are expected to return upon cessation of the drug.
- A user (Vince) on a low dose (20mg EOD) did "not notice any improvement joint issues."
- Limited Gains: While some "improvements in body composition" are expected, significant gains in muscle or strength are not. "At such a dose do not expect any significant gains in muscle/strength." - madman, Super Moderator
- Nitrogen Retention: Even at 100mg, Deca "will increase nitrogen retention in the muscle making your muscles fuller inside and outside of the gym." - DS3, Well-Known Member, former bodybuilder
- Strength vs. Muscle: One user's anecdotal video reference suggested "the 100mg of nandrolone group gained around the same amount of muscle as the 300mg of test group. So muscle gains on deca were clearly much better. Think deca lacked in the strength department, compared to test tho." - Gman86, Member (This contradicts the super moderator's general stance on strength at low doses).
- Water Retention and Appearance: Deca can lead to "more water retention resulting in a smoothed over look as opposed to a leaner more vascular look." - DS3, Well-Known Member
- Individual Variability: The outcome is highly dependent on "training/diet... and more importantly genetics." - madman, Super Moderator
- Hematocrit/Hemoglobin: Nandrolone, especially when combined with high Testosterone doses, can negatively impact hemoglobin and hematocrit levels. Users are advised to "keep an eye on those blood markers." - madman, Super Moderator
- Lipids (HDL): Nandrolone "can have a negative impact" on HDL (good cholesterol) markers. - madman, Super Moderator
- An Example: LerxstM4, on 200mg TestC and 100mg Nandrolone weekly, reported a hematocrit of 45.0 and HDL of 55, which were considered within acceptable ranges, and noted an improvement in hematocrit compared to a higher Test-only protocol.
5. Ancillary Benefits and Side Effects:
- Positive Anecdotes:Vince (20mg Nandrolone EOD): Noticed "some increase in strength, libido and mind clarity." Also experienced initial increase in hunger and belly fat that resolved.
- LerxstM4 (100mg Nandrolone + 200mg TestC weekly): Reported feeling "much better," "Libido is fantastic," "able to put on muscle I haven't been able to put on since I was a soldier in the Army back in the early 90s. I sleep better and am more alert during the day."
- DS3 (former user): Joints "feel better with nandrolone and my muscles stay full/recover quicker."
- Negative Side Effects:Mood/Sleep: DS3 reported experiencing "depression and sleep disturbances" after 6 weeks of nandrolone, leading them to stop. This highlights individual variability in response.
- Water Retention/Vascularity: As mentioned, water retention is common, and many users "tend to become less vascular taking nandrolone." - DS3, Well-Known Member
- Anabolicity: While Nandrolone "binds more strongly to the AR [androgen receptor]" than testosterone, at therapeutic doses (100mg/week), it is not used for its muscle-building potential. - madman, Super Moderator
- Strength: Speculation exists that testosterone may lead to better strength gains due to its higher aromatization to E2 (estrogen). - Gman86, Member
III. Key Facts and Takeaways
- 100mg Deca/week is a therapeutic dose: Primarily for joint pain/bone health, not significant muscle/strength gains.
- Joint relief is symptomatic: Deca masks pain by increasing lubrication and collagen; it doesn't heal underlying damage.
- Muscle gains are minimal at therapeutic doses: Expect minor body composition improvements, not "freak" gains.
- Strength gains are generally not a primary effect at lower doses, though some anecdotal reports vary.
- Blood monitoring is crucial: Pay attention to hemoglobin, hematocrit, and HDL levels, especially when combining Deca with higher TRT doses.
- Individual response varies: Some users experience significant positive effects (libido, clarity, mild gains), while others suffer adverse effects (depression, sleep disturbances).
- Water retention is a common aesthetic effect: Leads to a "smoothed over" look rather than increased vascularity.
Frequently Asked Questions
1. What is Deca (Nandrolone) typically prescribed for at lower doses?
At lower doses, typically ranging from 50mg to 100mg per week, Deca (Nandrolone) is primarily prescribed for therapeutic purposes. Its main clinical application is to alleviate joint pain, improve bone health, and provide increased lubrication and fluid retention in joints. It's important to note that while it can mask symptoms and provide relief, it doesn't necessarily heal underlying issues like tendinosis permanently.2. Can I expect significant muscle and strength gains from a 100mg weekly dose of Deca?
No, a 100mg weekly dose of Deca is generally considered a therapeutic dose and is not expected to produce significant gains in muscle mass or strength. While some minor improvements in body composition and strength may be observed, larger doses (e.g., 200-600mg/week) are typically needed to unlock its full muscle-building potential for bodybuilding or athletic enhancement. Factors like diet, training, and individual genetics play a much larger role in outcomes at lower doses.3. How does Deca compare to Testosterone in terms of anabolic effects and strength gains?
While Deca (Nandrolone) binds more strongly to the androgen receptor (AR) than testosterone, suggesting a higher anabolic rating, a therapeutic dose of 100mg/week of Deca is not intended for the sole purpose of muscle enhancement or significant strength gains. Testosterone's ability to aromatize into estrogen more readily than Deca may contribute to its perceived better strength gains in some contexts, although this is speculative. Anecdotal evidence suggests Deca might be better for muscle gains at certain comparable doses, but less effective for strength.4. What impact can Deca have on joint health?
Deca is known to relieve or improve joint pain due to increased joint lubrication, fluid retention, and increased collagen synthesis. However, it typically masks symptoms rather than permanently healing damaged tendons or ligaments, which often suffer from degeneration (tendinosis) due to wear, tear, and aging. The pain may return once the medication is stopped, and continued heavy training without addressing underlying issues can further exacerbate joint problems.5. Are there any notable side effects or blood marker changes to monitor when using Deca, especially in combination with high-dose Testosterone?
Yes, when using Deca, particularly in combination with a high dose of Testosterone Cypionate (e.g., 180mg/week), it's crucial to monitor certain blood markers. Nandrolone can negatively affect lipid markers, specifically HDL (good cholesterol). Additionally, combining it with high testosterone levels can elevate hemoglobin and hematocrit (red blood cell count), which may require monitoring and potentially therapeutic phlebotomy (blood donation) to keep within a healthy range. Some users have also reported initial increases in hunger and belly fat, though these may subside. Depression and sleep disturbances have also been reported by some individuals even at therapeutic doses.6. What kind of body composition changes might one expect from a therapeutic Deca dose?
At a therapeutic dose (e.g., 100mg/week), Deca can lead to increased nitrogen retention in muscles, potentially making them appear fuller. However, it can also cause water retention, resulting in a "smoothed over" look rather than a lean or vascular one. Some users have also noted becoming less vascular while on nandrolone. While some weight gain might occur due to water retention, true increases in lean mass are minimal at these lower therapeutic doses and are largely dependent on diet and calorie consumption.7. How does the administration frequency of Testosterone and Deca affect benefits and side effects?
Injecting testosterone and nandrolone more frequently, such as every other day (EOD), can contribute to a more stable hormonal profile, which some users report leads to feeling better overall, improved libido, better sleep, and increased alertness. This frequent administration can also potentially help manage peak and trough levels of hormones, which might influence side effects like hematocrit elevation compared to less frequent injections.8. Is Deca suitable for long-term use for joint issues?
While Deca can provide significant relief for joint pain due to its lubricating and collagen-increasing effects, it's generally not considered a permanent cure for chronic joint issues like tendinosis. The symptomatic relief often ceases once the medication is discontinued, and continued strenuous activity without addressing the root cause can perpetuate the problem. Therefore, it's often viewed as a way to mask symptoms and improve comfort rather than a long-term healing solution.
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