I Haven’t Slept in 4 years. What to Do?

CROM

Member
I mean, I haven’t slept in 4 years without taking drugs. I’ve been on TRT for 4 years and I think that is why I cannot sleep well.

When I started taking TRT I can only get about 4 hours of sleep. Then I wake up and I am wide-awake, but also tired. I cannot fall back asleep unless I eat a high carb meal. I guess its the insulin spike that does it.

I started with OTC sleep aids like melatonin and unison but they only last 4 hours. I tried Zolpidem but that only last 5 hours. Plus, Zolpidem seems to speed up my mind rather than relax it.

So then I moved on to using Benzodiazepines and they work great. But studies suggest they weaken the immune system a good bit, and are linked to increased fatal pneumonia risk. Not good combo with covid-19.

My question is, has anyone found something or any drug that provides at least 6.5 to 7 hours of sleep? Could it be elevated estrogen causing sleep issues? Has anyone adjusted their hormones to get better sleep. Do growth hormone peptides help you sleep, if so, which ones? I’d try anything at this point. Preferably something that is FDA approved for sleep, otherwise a doctor won't write a RX.
 

Cataceous

Well-Known Member
I've been there, getting four hours of sleep a night and feeling pretty miserable. I've chipped away at the problem over the years, to the point where I now get 6-7 hours of pretty good quality sleep and feel decent during the day. Here's what the protocol includes, roughly from strongest to weakest:

• First-gen antihistamine. These actually work well for me, but the link to dementia of these anticholinergics makes me uneasy, so I try to minimize use. Unfortunately they are still essential. Currently I take 25 mg diphenhydramine. Doxylamine is maybe even more effective. A trick for extending the duration of action is to place the medication in an enteric capsule, which are available on Amazon, example. I think this provides up to an extra hour, and may work with other meds too. Alternatively, hydroxyzine has a considerably longer half life, while working similarly. It could be worth looking at. I found it was too long-acting, causing next day fuzziness. It is available through AllDayChemist.

• Time-release melatonin. 750 mcg. For me, higher doses are not better, and may even be less effective.

• Progesterone. I inject 600 mcg nightly. OTC transdermal versions are available on Amazon. Higher doses are more effective, but for long-term use I'm more comfortable keeping serum levels mid-range. I think this adds about an hour to quality sleep. It also improves mood. It may be most helpful to those who start with low levels.

• Ipamorelin. 200-300 mcg. It's not quite as effective as when I started it, but I think it's somewhat useful. IGF-1 should be monitored. It may be better if cycled.

• Diurnal testosterone variation. I already knew that injecting testosterone at night was bad for my sleep. So a reasonable extrapolation is that lower levels at night may be helpful. Natural men do see lower levels then until the early-morning rise. I now use a blend of testosterone propionate and testosterone enanthate, injected each morning. This somewhat mimics a natural rhythm in serum testosterone, and helps at least a little with sleep.

• L-tryptophan. At most a few hundred milligrams, about 1/16 teaspoon in my case. This is more for help falling asleep.

• Glycine. I take a teaspoon of this. The effect is pretty subtle, so I'm not really sure how useful it is.
 

CROM

Member
Thanks. Good info. I think I will be trying several things from the list you gave. I really like the idea of time release capsules. I wonder what time release capsules last the longest. I was just reading one that said it last 2 hours.
 

sammmy

Active Member
I can't find a good study in humans that shows benzos suppress immune system at commonly used doses. The correlation studies mean nothing: a link (association/correlation) to pneumonia does not prove that benzos caused it but not one of the gazillion other factors the study does not account for, which can be correlated with benzo use. I've read a few animal studies and they use insane doses 10mg /kg (mice). The equivalent human dose would be say 1mg /kg which would be about 70mg of a benzo each day. They are essentially measuring toxic effects and do not prove these are observable at normal doses. Typical dumb medical "studies". It's like taking half a pound of aspirin per day and claim that it "increases the chances of sudden death".
 

Nelson Vergel

Founder, ExcelMale.com
I have been a light sleeper since childhood.

I find that when I walk 10,000 steps or more per day, I sleep soundly.

Also, no light on your eyes for an hour before bed time. No food or alcohol for at least 5 hours before bed time.

I chew on 1 mg melatonin tablets if I wake up at 2-3 am so that I can go back to sleep.

I chew 5 mg melatonin gummies two hours before bed.

Some guys like CBD to sleep also.

Some swear by taking progesterone.


 

Smetry

Member
Sleeping pills are not good on the long run on the brain, consider a sleep test it's a tool to put on ur nose or face have sensors to determine the oxygen and carbon dioxide getting in and out range from ur system then the sleep specialist will see if you have a sleep apnea or not if not he can give u advice if yes you probably need to have a sleeping machine which gives you oxygen while sleeping that affects your brain positively not just for sleeping just for all your body functions including sleeping issue I'm about to do it soon even I know it's annoying and inconvenient to get something on ur face while sleeping but probably will get used to it like my doctor said and poor sleep can also lead easily to low testosterone , greeting to all
 

Novaman

Member
I was on TRT for almost 5 years. I suffered sleep issues for around 4 of those 5. I tried everything to fix it. In the end the only thing that worked was quitting TRT.
 

Vman

Member
My question is, has anyone found something or any drug that provides at least 6.5 to 7 hours of sleep? Could it be elevated estrogen causing sleep issues? Has anyone adjusted their hormones to get better sleep. Do growth hormone peptides help you sleep, if so, which ones? I’d try anything at this point. Preferably something that is FDA approved for sleep, otherwise a doctor won't write a RX.

I feel for you. Sleep is an issue for me too though not nearly as bad for me as it is for you.

I get 6.5-7 hours of sleep a night though I usually wake 2-3 times a night. I'm able to go back to sleep relatively quickly. I take 10mg of time release melatonin (half instant, half extended) 30 minutes before bed. No problems at all going to sleep. My problem is staying asleep.

Also as an FYI, I started anastrazole a couple months ago and it did not improve my sleep issues.

One thing you might want to try. You might want to try the compounded cream (I assume you're on injections). While I was on the cream I had no sleep issues at all. Just a thought.
 

DragonBits

Well-Known Member
Same here, and I have tried virtually everything.

Meaning, melatonin, time release melatonin, putting melatonin in enteric capsules, L-theanine, GABA, antihistamines, magnesium. CBD, vaping marijuana, cannabis gummies, glycine, progesterone.

For sure the cannabis makes me sleep, but it wears off in a few hours, and I have read it messes with REM sleeo, and I don't want to be taking a "hit" every few hours.

AND I fall asleep easily, so I don;'t need anything to get asleep, but sometimes I get up every 90 min and feel wide awake and then harder to get back to sleep. Often it seems like at 5am I sleep better, but that really screws up my day, and it is not always the case.

One thing that works often, a plate of pasta if I wake up at midnight, but that really spikes my blood sugar and it doesn't seem like a good long term solution, and I started to gain weight.

I monitor sleep with a fitbit watch and apt, the parts I like about it is telling me number of time I awake, when it was and how long. It gives a convenient overall score. It gives REM and deep sleep, don't 100% trust that that part is accurate. Time I am go to sleep and time I wake up is very accurate. But sometimes if I am on a computer after waking up say at 9:00AM, the watch tells me I am asleep?? I may not be moving at all, but I am not asleep.

Recently I had been sleeping really well, like 6-7.5 hours with a good sleep score. The sleep score was higher +80 then ever before. BTW, the sleep score tend to be better if the time awake is less than either REM / Deep sleep. BUT about 3 few weeks ago, it all fell apart and I couldn't stay asleep for anything.

My protocol for this was the following.
I take ~3 grams of Kratom when I wake up, it's like of like strong coffee for me. BTW. drink coffee up to 1PM). Then a second dose of Kratom about 2PM. What I noticed, when the kratom wears off I get a real drop in energy and get sleepy. I also take transdermal progesterione about 2PM also. My theory is that it takes a while for transdermal progesterone to have an effect, going by my watch telling me I sleep much better at 5m, i thought maybe it was the progesterone took that long to have an effect.

I didn't change anything, BUT as I said, about 3 weeks ago I suddenly had a problem sleeping.

What did change, I take Nebido, T / E levels gradually fall. About 3 weeks I was getting close to the end of the cycle, meaning 10-14 weeks, At that time I tested my hormone levels,

Testos 655​

FT (calc) 15.9​

 

E2 10.1​



So IMO my testosterone was just fine, my E2 was a little low. But on 11/26/2020 I did another nebido, while I didn't do another test, my T should be ~1400 / E2 maybe 38, going on numerous tests done in the past.

Suddenly, on Wed 12/9, I am back to sleeping well.

Sooo, my current theory is it's the combo of kratom, progesterone and higher estrogen that works, and it takes a few weeks for the hormone change to have an effect. (I only picked on the E2 as the culprit because it was fairly low, but who knows, higher T could have caused other changes outside of the E2 rise. My E2 is never out of range on the high side).

My plan going forward is to see if I again have a negative change in sleep in ~9-10 weeks, if I do I will try an estrogen cream just to see if it raising my E2 helps, more for my own curiosity. I could just do another injection.

When this is "working", I have slept better than I have for the last 10 years.

The problem with sleep solutions, it seems like a lot of things work short term and then you get some sort of tolerance and it no longer works. Until I get longer term data, I no longer think "this is the fix", but I feel close to a fix.
 

Vman

Member
My plan going forward is to see if I again have a negative change in sleep in ~9-10 weeks, if I do I will try an estrogen cream just to see if it raising my E2 helps, more for my own curiosity. I could just do another injection.

I'll be curious to see if this works for you long term. Up until 2 months ago my E2 was sky high (1.5x to 2x top of range) and my sleep quality was about the same as it is now. I've been taking anastrazole for the last 2 months. Will have labs very soon.
 

Ronnny

Member
DHEA 25mg at night helps me to get a sound sleep. I was always a light sleeper. I combine 25mg DHEA +150mg antihistamin to sleep. I also take 400mg -800mg Magnesium citrate.
 
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sammmy

Active Member
I recently found out that progesterone cream applied on neck (10-20 mg progesterone) before bed helps me fall asleep for 6 hours. It metabolizes to stuff that acts on GABA A receptors. Without it, I cannot fall asleep at all due to the HIV drugs I take. Side effects of progesterone: decreases vigor (energy/strengh/endurance) the next day. Make sure you wash off the cream in the morning so it doesn't keep absorbing during the day when you don't need it.
 

Misery

New Member
Low dose quetiapine.

I promise you will sleep! I was started at 25mg and initially only dosed 12.5 and slept like a baby.
 

Ronnny

Member
That is too powerful. I think I tried one time Seroquel brand name. This pill made me too sleepy in the morning. Quetiapine/Seroquel not a regular sleep pill.
 
I have treatment resistant bipolar, 15 year duration, 70 years old. Been on Klonopin for all those years. All I am is addicted to it, even though I managed to go from 1.5 mg per night to .25 mg over a two year period. Been on every psych med, antihistamines, DHEA, pregnenolone, melatonin, progesterone(which does seem to work but then I can't ejaculate). My psychiatrist, also a board certified neurologist, told me Klonopin causes brain damage similar to what is seen in long term alcohol abuse. I probably have damage already from the drug. Regarding Serequel/quetiapine, at low dose it strongly antagonizes histamine, thus the sleep. @Misery; I'm presuming you're on quetiapine for psych issues. If I'm wrong, I apologize. It's not a drug to a fool around with. Even at low doses it can negatively impact blood sugar, lipids and the heart, but, so can long term poor sleep. Screwed either way.

Testosterone injections haven't made my sleep better or worse. 30 to 50 mg either daily or EOD, in the past, had improved my mood. Currently restarting, quite low; 20 mg, Test E, IM, EOD. I'm actually experiencing mild to moderate nocturnal erections after three weeks on this protocol. Not getting excited but good to have any degree of erectile function.
 
I have treatment resistant bipolar, 15 year duration, 70 years old. Been on Klonopin for all those years. All I am is addicted to it, even though I managed to go from 1.5 mg per night to .25 mg over a two year period. Been on every psych med, antihistamines, DHEA, pregnenolone, melatonin, progesterone(which does seem to work but then I can't ejaculate). My psychiatrist, also a board certified neurologist, told me Klonopin causes brain damage similar to what is seen in long term alcohol abuse. I probably have damage already from the drug. Regarding Serequel/quetiapine, at low dose it strongly antagonizes histamine, thus the sleep. @Misery; I'm presuming you're on quetiapine for psych issues. If I'm wrong, I apologize. It's not a drug to a fool around with. Even at low doses it can negatively impact blood sugar, lipids and the heart, but, so can long term poor sleep. Screwed either way.

Testosterone injections haven't made my sleep better or worse. 30 to 50 mg either daily or EOD, in the past, had improved my mood. Currently restarting, quite low; 20 mg, Test E, IM, EOD. I'm actually experiencing mild to moderate nocturnal erections after three weeks on this protocol. Not getting excited but good to have any degree of erectile function.
I’m also testing out 20mg EOD now, and it’s only been 2 shots so far of it, but I’ve had the best 3 nights sleep already that I’ve had in a while. I’m sure placebo at some level, but I don’t care. I just love sleeping well. For 4 years, I’ve been waking wide awake at 3am and unable to go back to sleep until it’s time to wake up, consequently feeling like trash the following day. So frustrating and resulted in lots of grey hair and had aged me quite a bit. I’m hopeful though this continues or improves even more.
 
I mean, I haven’t slept in 4 years without taking drugs. I’ve been on TRT for 4 years and I think that is why I cannot sleep well.

When I started taking TRT I can only get about 4 hours of sleep. Then I wake up and I am wide-awake, but also tired. I cannot fall back asleep unless I eat a high carb meal. I guess its the insulin spike that does it.

I started with OTC sleep aids like melatonin and unison but they only last 4 hours. I tried Zolpidem but that only last 5 hours. Plus, Zolpidem seems to speed up my mind rather than relax it.

So then I moved on to using Benzodiazepines and they work great. But studies suggest they weaken the immune system a good bit, and are linked to increased fatal pneumonia risk. Not good combo with covid-19.

My question is, has anyone found something or any drug that provides at least 6.5 to 7 hours of sleep? Could it be elevated estrogen causing sleep issues? Has anyone adjusted their hormones to get better sleep. Do growth hormone peptides help you sleep, if so, which ones? I’d try anything at this point. Preferably something that is FDA approved for sleep, otherwise a doctor won't write a RX.
Have you tried an ED/EOD protocol for your testosterone injections?
 

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