Who's currently on T propionate?

[smokedsalmon]

I read threads for a couple hours yesterday as I've been considering trying it out. I can always go back to cypionate anyways! Found a bunch of guys here especially have tried it, but some went off it after a while. Wondering who has stayed on it, or can still say they like it better.

My reasons for trying it:

• Happy on cypionate after lowering my dose recently, but wondering if I'd like another ester more
• Shorter half life so supposedly able to adjust it more and find the right dose - not have to settle like on cypionate because it takes so long to make adjustments (and by then your life has changed anyways)
• Supposedly less water retention
• Guys who say they feel much more alive on it than on cyp/ent
• I already inject daily so it's not a lifestyle change
• Ordering from Empower which I've heard doesn't sting

I know I may see all or none of this happen, or it may be a total flop.

My biggest concern - I have a lot of friends who like doing things later in the evening or at night. Will I "crash"?

Bonus question: any propionate guys a fan of the cyp/prop blends?

 

[Nomad]

@Vince uses a cyp/prop blend I believe

 

[fifty]

I don't think I can name anyone on here who likes test prop. However there have been probably 5+ guys that tried it semi-recently and never liked it.

 

[Cataceous]

What's keeping me somewhat interested in propionate is that during the transition from enanthate I had better sexual function than at any other time under TRT, and also better than in the previous ten years. But the benefits faded over time, which is all too common. In the end I felt subtly better on daily propionate, but maybe not enough to justify the extra injections. Blood work suggested wider hormonal swings than I had expected, so more recently I have been trying half enanthate-half propionate, to better emulate normal diurnal variation. Three weeks in and there's nothing remarkable to report.

 

[smokedsalmon]

I don't think I can name anyone on here who likes test prop. However there have been probably 5+ guys that tried it semi-recently and never liked it.

I've seen a couple both ways factoring in multiple forums. But yea, some guys definitely don't like it, I need to keep that in mind.

Gonna talk to Defy about it and see what they think too. I'm sure the one thing they have on us here are many more reports pointing both ways (as not everyone they work with is on a TRT forum surely).

 

[smokedsalmon]

What's keeping me somewhat interested in propionate is that during the transition from enanthate I had better sexual function than at any other time under TRT, and also better than in the previous ten years. But the benefits faded over time, which is all too common. In the end I felt subtly better on daily propionate, but maybe not enough to justify the extra injections. Blood work suggested wider hormonal swings than I had expected, so more recently I have been trying half enanthate-half propionate, to better emulate normal diurnal variation. Three weeks in and there's nothing remarkable to report.

How wide were the fluctuations? I'm finding I do better on a lower dose of cypionate (currently 150mg but it puts me in the low 700s), and I remember how I felt once I went from 500 to 400 - don't want to feel that again daily!

On the same note, when I was on 200mg, my TT was around 1200, and I was getting significantly more angry, more anxious, and lost my libido. Trying anastrozole helped with the libido, but that was about it. The rest was still a problem, especially the anxiety.

In other words, I'm not sure I want to swing from 1000 to 500 every day. Then again, only one way to find out.

 

[Cataceous]

How wide were the fluctuations? ...

Here's the data. First column is dose, second column is measured pre-dose serum testosterone, last column is plus/minus deviation about the estimated average. The average deviation is over +/-40%. I think natural variation tops out at more like +/-20%.

 

[antelopers]

Here's the data. First column is dose, second column is measured pre-dose serum testosterone, last column is plus/minus deviation about the estimated average. The average deviation is over +/-40%. I think natural variation tops out at more like +/-20%.

View attachment 8619

How are you estimating the avg and peak t with only trough readings?

 

[Nomad]

Here's the data. First column is dose, second column is measured pre-dose serum testosterone, last column is plus/minus deviation about the estimated average. The average deviation is over +/-40%. I think natural variation tops out at more like +/-20%.

View attachment 8619

I wish there was official studies on these numbers. The pharmaceutical half life of all the esters is significantly higher than what people experience.

 

[Cataceous]

How are you estimating the avg and peak t with only trough readings?

This topic really needs a separate thread and graphics to do it justice. But the summary: With lab data from different doses of EOD enanthate and EOD cypionate I found serum levels to be stable and indicative of a very linear relationship between testosterone dose and Tru-T free testosterone. Thus I have pretty good confidence that I can predict average free testosterone based on my dose with any ester. Measured SHBG then allows a prediction of average total testosterone. This is the estimated average in my chart.

I assume a linear rise to peak serum testosterone after each injection, followed by a linear fall to the pre-injection trough. Under these conditions the peak value should be as much above the average as the trough is below. Criticisms of the model: It probably overstates the peaks by a bit, as peaks are actually rounded and not sharp points. The rise and fall are not going to be exactly linear. Nonetheless, I feel it's close enough to give an idea of what's happening.

 

[Cataceous]

I wish there was official studies on these numbers. The pharmaceutical half life of all the esters is significantly higher than what people experience.

I suspect part of the discrepancy is because the apparent half-life of testosterone esters decreases with the dose. Much of the research uses doses that are relatively large compared to our small and frequent TRT doses.

 

[smokedsalmon]

Here's the data. First column is dose, second column is measured pre-dose serum testosterone, last column is plus/minus deviation about the estimated average. The average deviation is over +/-40%. I think natural variation tops out at more like +/-20%.

View attachment 8619

How are you estimating the avg and peak t with only trough readings?

Curious as well, not saying you're wrong either! I just know there's so many variables. Like how I'm a small guy and 150mg "only" brought me to 700

And while it's not really related to your chart, at the end of the day there's such a difference in how every guy feels on any particular dose too. I talk to a guy on another board who says he's extremely satisfied with his TT around 1900. 1200 to me almost ruined my life. And my good friend is naturally around 200 and feels fine, while I couldn't go on once I dropped into the 400s.

 

[Cataceous]

Curious as well, not saying you're wrong either! I just know there's so many variables. Like how I'm a small guy and 150mg "only" brought me to 700

And while it's not really related to your chart, at the end of the day there's such a difference in how every guy feels on any particular dose too. I talk to a guy on another board who says he's extremely satisfied with his TT around 1900. 1200 to me almost ruined my life. And my good friend is naturally around 200 and feels fine, while I couldn't go on once I dropped into the 400s.

See the explanation above. In case it's not clear, each person must take measurements to establish his own dose-response parameters. These measurements must be taken when serum testosterone is hardly varying, which means with relatively frequent injections of longer esters. I'd expect the dose-response parameters to be fairly linear, as mine were, but obviously we all have different metabolisms, so the slopes may vary quite a lot between individuals. Here are mine:

There's also the possibility that these numbers change over time, though mine seem to have been pretty steady over a period of years.

This means that my predicted average free testosterone is about 0.6274 times my weekly dose of testosterone. Here's how it fits in with the rest: Suppose I'm injecting 9 mg T propionate a day. This translates to 53 mg testosterone per week. I multiply this by 0.6274 to get a predicted average free testosterone of 33 ng/dL. Now suppose I measure total testosterone at trough of 540 ng/dL and SHBG of 27. I go to the Tru-T site and find what total testosterone value corresponds to the free T value of 33 ng/dL. I find this to be about 910 ng/dL. Now I know that my trough measurement is 41% under the predicted average, and the predicted peak is 41% over, about 1,280 ng/dL.

Though the numbers may be rough estimates, the important point here is that a 40% variation around average serum testosterone is unnaturally large, potentially making the protocol undesirable.

 

[Nomad]

See the explanation above. In case it's not clear, each person must take measurements to establish his own dose-response parameters. These measurements must be taken when serum testosterone is hardly varying, which means with relatively frequent injections of longer esters. I'd expect the dose-response parameters to be fairly linear, as mine were, but obviously we all have different metabolisms, so the slopes may vary quite a lot between individuals. Here are mine:
View attachment 8621
There's also the possibility that these numbers change over time, though mine seem to have been pretty steady over a period of years.

This means that my predicted average free testosterone is about 0.6274 times my weekly dose of testosterone. Here's how it fits in with the rest: Suppose I'm injecting 9 mg T propionate a day. This translates to 53 mg testosterone per week. I multiply this by 0.6274 to get a predicted average free testosterone of 33 ng/dL. Now suppose I measure total testosterone at trough of 540 ng/dL and SHBG of 27. I go to the Tru-T site and find what total testosterone value corresponds to the free T value of 33 ng/dL. I find this to be about 910 ng/dL. Now I know that my trough measurement is 41% under the predicted average, and the predicted peak is 41% over, about 1,280 ng/dL.

Though the numbers may be rough estimates, the important point here is that a 40% variation around average serum testosterone is unnaturally large, potentially making the protocol undesirable.

before I was on TRT I actually had about a 40-50% variation in my testosterone levels at 7am and 4pm.

 

[Cataceous]

before I was on TRT I actually had about a 40-50% variation in my testosterone levels at 7am and 4pm.

So that would be on the order of +/-20% from the mean, correct?

 

[Nomad]

So that would be on the order of +/-20% from the mean, correct?

40-50% considering I was mid 400s at 7am and 200s 9 hours later. That was pre-TRT natural numbers. By bedtime I was most likely high 100s so for me, there was a much larger than 20% natural variance throughout the day.

 

[Cataceous]

40-50% considering I was mid 400s at 7am and 200s 9 hours later. That was pre-TRT natural numbers. By bedtime I was most likely high 100s so for me, there was a much larger than 20% natural variance throughout the day.

That could be as low as +/-29% variation (450—250, 350 +/-100), but it's still large compared to some research averages:

 

[bp]

What's keeping me somewhat interested in propionate is that during the transition from enanthate I had better sexual function than at any other time under TRT, and also better than in the previous ten years. But the benefits faded over time, which is all too common. In the end I felt subtly better on daily propionate, but maybe not enough to justify the extra injections. Blood work suggested wider hormonal swings than I had expected, so more recently I have been trying half enanthate-half propionate, to better emulate normal diurnal variation. Three weeks in and there's nothing remarkable to report.

My sentiments entirely with my experience on prop.
I will definitely continue to use it, however will be using it in conjunction with either enanthate or cypionate.
At present im ‘playing” with the right %’s of prop/cyp

 

[bp]

Here's the data. First column is dose, second column is measured pre-dose serum testosterone, last column is plus/minus deviation about the estimated average. The average deviation is over +/-40%. I think natural variation tops out at more like +/-20%.

View attachment 8619

Iirc , this is almost indentical to my blood work, even down to the dosages (if this is ED pinning?)

Did you find it interesting the deviation (40%), compared to the reported scientific data on test prop half life? (ie, that the apparent half life is around 12-24hrs, yet we were both clearing it at a much faster rate than is documented by the scientific community)

Some lads on here asked me to post my bloods. I will do when i get back home from a work stationing.

 

[Nomad]

Its frustrating to see people’s results here with Cypionate, Enanthate, and Propionate esters half-lives being dramatically shorter than what is established in the medical community. (Enanthate 6 days, Cypionate 7 days, and propionate 2 days) I can’t find an official scientific study on them.
An ester that bridges between prop and Enanthate around 72 hours would be ideal to be developed for daily injections.

steroid forum bro-science can get even more wild, they mostly recommend EOD prop injections. with prop being the least likely to cause gyno lumps due to fluctuations.