Switch to Propianate due to high Estrogen Levels?

[Jeff Frantz]

I'm currently taking 100 mg of Cyp per week. I started my TRT 6 weeks ago and recently took a blood test a few hours before my 5th injection (I'm currently waiting on the results). I seem very sensitive to estrogen. I was taking .5 milligrams of Arimidex twice a week and was experiencing a good bit of sensitivity in the nipples. I increased the dose to 3 times a week and Im still experiencing some sensitivity.
I was wondering if it would be a good idea to switch to Propianate?? I heard you don't deal with as much Estrogen while taking Propianate and water retention is much less. The Arimidex gets pretty expensive. I realize that I would probably have to take three injections a week due to the half life of Propianate. Are there any reasons why I shouldn't switch to Propianate versus Enanthate or Cypianate?

 

[Gene Devine]

It makes no difference what the Testosterone compound is; the fact is E follows T.

Just because you have sensitive nipples is by no means any indication of elevated Estrogen levels; there are a host of other nasty symptoms that would potentially indicate that scenario and you would know it for sure as they are not hard to miss.

If you suspect elevated E2 get you estrogen levels tested and make sure to get the "Sensitive" estrogen lab designed for men and boys BEFORE making any adjustments to your protocol. This is very important.

 

[Vettester Chris]

In many cases, the sensitivity of nipples will occur when E2 is low and just rebounding or trying to normalize. Then again, could be high and too much spiking. For the sake of not speculating, what is your E2 sensitive lab value?? You were not taking all that much exogenous test, and unless your E2 was elevated, you probably didn't need that much AI. This is just a reach of speculation, I see you're waiting on labs, BUT, 1mg "could" have taken you down pretty low, pretty quick, and the sensitivity was just a sign that your E2 was trying to climb to normal as mentioned above.

"IF" that's the case, OR if that happens down the road, you can implement a small amount of Nolva/Tamox, 10mg/day, which will mitigate the issue with the receptor sites. It usually doesn't have to be done for more than a week, sometimes only a few days. I haven't taken an AI in years, and that's with cyp and HCG. It's just a case of finding the correct balance that is optimal for your body.

Yeah, you could do Prop if you really want, but me thinks you will be getting burned out on your protocol in time. Sub Q with Cyp 2x per week would be a much better program, but it's you & your physician's call. The right amount of estrogen is a GREAT thing, and it's greatly needed for a variety of reasons. When your estrogen gets too low you will find your nails & hair go to hell, as well as your immune system, sex drive, emotional well being, etc ... It's just about as important as any other hormone in the endocrine system. However, with men there's a semi-fine line with E2 ... The goldie locks range with the Labcorp sensitive tends to be in the 20pg to 35pg range; some a little higher, some a little lower.

 

[Vettester Chris]

Ha, Gene was posting at the same time I was. HRT minds think alike!!

 

[Jeff Frantz]

Thank you both for your replies. I'm not sure if my test was a "Sensitive" Estrogen Lab or not. I will try to find out tomorrow. If it is not a Sensitive test. What levels should I be looking for?? 20pg - 35pg?? and should I go ahead and get another lab done if the one I did wasn't a Sensitive test??

 

[Gene Devine]

Ha, Gene was posting at the same time I was. HRT minds think alike!!

Yeah, but you wrote a longer more detailed response my dear friend

 

[Vettester Chris]

Thank you both for your replies. I'm not sure if my test was a "Sensitive" Estrogen Lab or not. I will try to find out tomorrow. If it is not a Sensitive test. What levels should I be looking for?? 20pg - 35pg?? and should I go ahead and get another lab done if the one I did wasn't a Sensitive test??

The measurement variances are vastly different on the standard E2 assays. If it's not a sensitive, use a place like Discounted Labs to get one ordered through Lab Corp. Anything else is just guesswork.

 

[Gene Devine]

To concur with Chris; if not the "Sensitive" lab than any E2 lab is worthless...trust me on that.

Please, start to learn; TRT is for life and you need to know that it's not like taking a multi vitamin for the rest of your life as it's much more serious than that.

This is very serious stuff; but when it's executed correctly it will change your life in ways you can imagine...and I kid you not!!!

 

[Jeff Frantz]

Ok,
I got the results back, but the nurse doesn't seem to know if it was a Sensitive Estrogen lab or not, which means it probably wasn't. The results of this test are.... Estradiol - 21 & Estrone - 35

I will follow up with Doctor on Monday and see if I can get the Sensitive Lab done. The blood work was done through Lab Core.

Testosterone increased from 310 - 618

My free testosterone is 9.2 ... Im not sure what it was before

 

[Vettester Chris]

Jeff, the LabCorp E2 sensitive will have a Ref Range from 3pg - 70pg. Labcorp code is 140244. Estrone (E1) is a great marker when checking estrogen variances with peri/post menopausal women, but has no relevance with hypogonadal males, at least none that I've ever seen.

 

[Jeff Frantz]

It states Estrone, Serum Refernce 12 - 70 ... mine was 35

I will try and schedule the Sensitive test. Thanks again for all you help.

 

[Jeff Frantz]

Chris,

Will Testosterone levels at 600 make a significant change in lean muscle mass and fat loss?? Ive been training & Dieting pretty hard and haven't seen much change in the physique as of yet. Its been 6 weeks ... 240 grams protein a day - 6 meals a day, low carb, calories under 2,000

 

[Gene Devine]

It states Estrone, Serum Refernce 12 - 70 ... mine was 35

I will try and schedule the Sensitive test. Thanks again for all you help.

The standard default Estrogen lab designed for women tends to over estimate men's serum levels. So with that in mind, your 35, if overstated, means you may be even lower suggesting that don't have an elevated Estrogen problem...just deduction is all.

 

[Gene Devine]

Chris,

Will Testosterone levels at 600 make a significant change in lean muscle mass and fat loss?? Ive been training & Dieting pretty hard and haven't seen much change in the physique as of yet. Its been 6 weeks ... 240 grams protein a day - 6 meals a day, low carb, calories under 2,000

Six weeks not near enough time...wait 6 months...and train hard and you will see results.

 

[Jeff Frantz]

OK, thank you

 

[Jeff Frantz]

Thank you Gene for taking your time to respond. I was taking .5 milligrams of Armidix 2x's a week right up to the blood test... I will try to schedule a Sensitive as soon as I can. Maybe I will be able to drop the amount of Arimidix depending on the results.

 

[Vettester Chris]

Chris,

Will Testosterone levels at 600 make a significant change in lean muscle mass and fat loss?? Ive been training & Dieting pretty hard and haven't seen much change in the physique as of yet. Its been 6 weeks ... 240 grams protein a day - 6 meals a day, low carb, calories under 2,000

Jeff, if you're talking macros, 240 grams is pushing close to 1,000 calories itself. There still needs to be room for carbs at the right time, plus fat, which will pull 9 calories per gram.

I don't know your stats, but you've mentioned you're looking to add lean mass. Cool, you've got the concept of "more meals", getting your metabolism sped up, and ramping up the protein. However, maybe look at it a little different and understand that more calories could be your solution. If you're training hard, then feed the fire and give it the building blocks to grow. Add the right type of carbs in the morning, and before you train, then look at fats & omegas in the evening.

Keep in mind, Michael Phelps was pushing 12,000 calories day training at the Olympics. Maybe get with a specialist on this and design a program that will match your needs. Like Gene stated, six (6) weeks is way too soon to be expecting results. Also keep in mind, water retention can be an issue when starting out, especially when trying to get E2 reeled in.