Understanding Test Levels and Muscle Retention/Gains

[T-dog]

Thanks in advance for reading a rather lengthy post.

I am 90% happy with my TRT protocol, which I've been on for 5 years or so. So I'm not looking for advice on adjustments, but to better understand some specific questions.

As an aside, my testosterone levels are on the higher side (900 ng/dl on the low end to over 1,000 ng/dl...depending on the date of results), and my Free Testosterone is also on the higher end, 26-30+ pg/ml.

So back to the point. It seems to me when I've read about lifting weights, there are a couple topics that apply to "natural" lifters that make me question how they apply to people taking TRT.

Here are some quotes from a blog post at BuiltLean High Reps vs. Low Reps

"Low repetitions with heavy weight increases strength, whereas high repetitions with light weight increases endurance. According to the concept, as repetitions increase there is a gradual transition from strength to endurance. "

"There is a common misconception that lifting heavier weights automatically helps you build muscle. That’s not the case at all. In fact, how much you eat in combination with the overall volume and intensity of the workout and how it becomes more challenging over time will make the difference, not necessarily the weight/reps. If you eat relatively less calories than you burn, you can lift very, very heavy weight and most likely not gain an ounce of muscle mass. This especially applies to women who have 1/10 the amount of the muscle-building hormone testosterone as men. In a calorie deficit, increases in strength are likely due to neuromuscular adaptation and not increases in muscle mass. "

And from Bodybuilding.com

"Research has shown that in order to increase muscle mass, stress must be put on the body, leading to increased hormone release, and increased flow of nutrients into the muscle, and with rest, muscles will grow. "

So we've got three concepts that apply to a "natural" lifter, who has no consistent control of their Testosterone levels like someone on TRT.

1) Low reps are better than high reps for adding muscle mass​

2) If you are in a caloric deficit, you can't gain muscle no matter what you do with the weights​

3) The stress you place on the muscle leads to increased hormone release (among other things) which is a critical part of making muscles grow​

​

I want to get out of the way it's a given you need to be giving your body proper nutrition. So for the sake of these questions, let's assume you are getting proper caloric intake as well as protein, fat, carb ratios...and you are doing the same things an experienced "natural" lifter is doing, who is achieving good results. In other words, these questions are solely concerned with how muscles react given consistent, elevated testosterone levels.

On to the questions:

"Low repetitions with heavy weight increases strength, whereas high repetitions with light weight increases endurance."

1 - For someone with stabilized testosterone levels in the upper ranges of what is naturally achievable, does it matter if you utilize high-reps or low-reps when trying to put on mass?​

"If you eat relatively less calories than you burn, you can lift very, very heavy weight and most likely not gain an ounce of muscle mass."

2 - Since you can maintain elevated testosterone levels on TRT, is it possible to have an advantage over a "natural" lifter...where on TRT you can be in a caloric deficit, and simultaneously lose fat and gain muscle?​

​

I read it may be possible to lose fat and maintain muscle, like an Australian Study found:​

"both groups lost roughly 24 pounds; but those in the testosterone group lost almost exclusively fat, while those on the placebo lost both lean muscle and fat. More specifically, the men taking testosterone lost 6.6 pounds more body fat than those on the placebo and maintained their muscle mass, while those on placebo lost 7.7 lb of muscle mass."

​

But, again, can you gain muscle while losing fat while in a caloric deficit...or conversely, be in a slight caloric surplus adding muscle and losing fat more than a "natural" lifter?​

"...stress must be put on the body, leading to increased hormone release, and increased flow of nutrients into the muscle, and with rest, muscles will grow. "

3 -​

a) Since you can maintain elevated testosterone levels on TRT, is trying to achieve "increased hormone release" as important as getting proper nutrition and rest?​

​

b) And is rest between working the same muscle as necessary for someone on TRT, or does it fall somewhere between a "natural" lifter and someone doing a cycle of steroids?​

I know this is a long post, but it essentially boils down to trying to understand the differences (if any) in how someone on TRT vs. "natural" can approach lifting weights in order to gain mass?

Again, I don't personally need a lifting plan or nutritional advice, but I'd like to understand these things better. So if you've got any insight into any of these areas, please let me know.

 

[jhperez81]

From what I read people on TRT should train like natural lifters. Many programs for natural lifters focus on hitting each muscle 2-3 times per week to trigger protein synthesis. In natural lifters protein synthesis lasts for 24-48 hours then the muscle must be hit again to trigger the cycle again. Superphysiological levels of test puts the body in constant protein synthesis mode so gains are easier whether doing high or low volume. Natural lifters can hurt gains by doing too many reps after protein synthesis has already been triggered.

 

[T-dog]

From what I read people on TRT should train like natural lifters. Many programs for natural lifters focus on hitting each muscle 2-3 times per week to trigger protein synthesis. In natural lifters protein synthesis lasts for 24-48 hours then the muscle must be hit again to trigger the cycle again. Superphysiological levels of test puts the body in constant protein synthesis mode so gains are easier whether doing high or low volume. Natural lifters can hurt gains by doing too many reps after protein synthesis has already been triggered.

Thanks for the response. I take it by supra-physiological, you mean those doing cycles of steroids...not those on TRT, even if they are in the higher natural range such as 1,200 ng/dl.

I'm finding it tough to find solid information on this. I'm guessing it's probably because you can read something clinical in a scientific journal, but when it comes time for your buddies or internet bloggers to back that up as anecdotal experiences, most lifters willing to do this are either natural, heavily-juiced, or on TRT and not willing to admit to it.

Also those on TRT can probably do a cycle if they want it bad enough, then return to TRT levels afterwards to maintain the muscle. So most of those gains are done at that supra-physiological level. Leaving me once again wondering what the best plan is if you are only on TRT.

I just think with the levels of elevated testosterone, there has to be some advantage to how your body reacts. Meaning there has to be some way to take advantage of the condition compared to someone natural doing the exact same thing.

I did see a study that dealt with protein synthesis as you are saying, that concluded:

"We conclude that testosterone replacement in hypogonadal men enhanced skeletal muscle mass by stimulating the muscle protein synthesis rate."

And the levels didn't seem to be that high. If I'm reading correctly:

"The dose was adjusted bimonthly with the aim of achieving a nadir (i.e. immediately before injection) total testosterone concentration of 10.4-13.9 nmol/L (300-400 ng/dL) and was administered for 6 months (Fig. 1). The goal concentrations were approximately achieved in all subjects at all times..."

edit...I'm going to add this study seems like it was from 1996

 

[jhperez81]

If TRT gives you Testosterone levels of a young man, then even though you're pushing 40 you should be able to gain muscle as well as an 18 year old. That's an advantage on its own. I took a 15 year hiatus from the gym and after a month I'm back to the same weight I plateaued at in my early 20's. I have no doubt that I will be breaking all those PR's in the next few months.

 

[T-dog]

I took a 15 year hiatus from the gym and after a month I'm back to the same weight I plateaued at in my early 20's..

Wow, that's pretty inspiring

 

[S1W]

Testosterone is just one factor. I don’t notice any difference with my ability to gain on level standing from 900-1800. Now the difference between 100-300 and 1000 was significant for sure.

This is something I've been wondering about. Are you saying you didn't notice any difference in gains with FT high above lab ranges vs FT at are below lab ranges?

I read an article (looked for it, can't find it right now) that stated that within physiological ranges, muscle building ability is not significantly affected, but that there is a positive correlation to fat burning, etc as one goes up within the physiological range. The article stated that they saw increased muscle building ability once subjects levels were about 30% above the normal ranges.

Another thing I've been curious about - many guys on here tout ED or EOD injection schedules to deal with side effects. But it seems, at least on the surface, that given the same total weekly dose, that 2x/week would be better for muscle building if it spikes you into supraphysiological ranges for half the days of the week (side effects be damned). Any opinions/experience with that?

 

[tj]

You would indeed think that having supraphysiological levels would yield more growht.

 

[T-dog]

2x/week would be better for muscle building if it spikes you into supraphysiological ranges for half the days of the week

That's something I'm curious about too. Not the twice a week injections, but the levels you'd achieve if you weren't tested at the lowest point...and if that would make any difference in how you should work out (i.e. should you do your heaviest lifts on days you inject, a day after you inject, etc.)

 

[S1W]

That's something I'm curious about too. Not the twice a week injections, but the levels you'd achieve if you weren't tested at the lowest point...and if that would make any difference in how you should work out (i.e. should you do your heaviest lifts on days you inject, a day after you inject, etc.)

I have tested both at peak and at trough in the same week on a 60mg Cyp E3.5D protocol, as I was also curious. With SHBG of 23, peak TT was about 1450, trough TT was about 880.

Since I hit the gym every week day (5x/week), I feel like I would inevitably be lifting during my peaks regardless of what I did with my protocol.

 

[T-dog]

I have tested both at peak and at trough in the same week on a 60mg Cyp E3.5D protocol, as I was also curious. With SHBG of 23, peak TT was about 1450, trough TT was about 880.

That is great info, thanks for posting those numbers.

 

[T-dog]

People than run cycles START at 500/wk, and that is just getting started. Future cycles are at higher levels to keep gaining.

I don’t think your T levels at 1000 vs 1500 is going to be a large factor in gym gains. Makes more sense to use it for therapeutic reasons. Focus on routine and diet for gains. If you want to run blasts then you would be silly to only go slightly above physiological levels imo.

Good points. And even with cycling 500/wk, people still need to work out consistently and have nutrition cracking in order to see the results you'd expect from someone who is "juiced".

I can see my levels (over 1,000) come in just over the men my age in the charts on this link who are in the top 5% naturally (mid 900), so I wouldn't expect much of an advantage over those guys when it comes to building muscle. But I figured we would have an advantage over those in the median (around 600) until I read another article.

Fluctuations in testosterone within the normal physiological range, however, aren’t going to do much of anything

To demonstrate its point, the article uses an example about how aggression plummets if you remove someone's testes. Strangely, if you restore just 20% of their normal testosterone levels, you bring back the full levels of aggression. However, even doubling their normal levels doesn't cause aggression to increase further. It concludes when it comes to aggression, the body brain responds the same to roughly 20 percent of normal to twice the normal level.

So if that same logic also applies to testosterone levels and muscle-builidng, it would make sense even those on the higher end of TRT wouldn't have much of an advantage over your average Joe. You'd need to raise your levels to 2,000 minimum (double what anyone natural is likely to have).

I'm not saying that is the case, but it's an interesting thought to explore.

The post's main point seemed to be when it comes to building muscle, testosterone is given too much credit, whereas it may be androgen receptors doing all the work:

"guys who built the most muscle after 12 weeks of weight training weren’t the ones with the highest testosterone levels, but the ones with more androgen receptors.
...In other words, it isn’t testosterone levels that predict muscle gains, but how sensitive your muscles are to that testosterone."

 

[S1W]

How Testosterone Levels Affect Muscle Growth and Fat Loss

According to this article, movement within the range physiological range does not significantly affect muscle growth:

"What researchers found was that so long as testosterone levels were within the physiological normal range, between 300-1,000 ng/dl, muscle growth didn’t change very much. That is, the subjects on the low end of normal weren’t that far behind subjects on the high end in terms of muscle growth.

A statistically significant increase in muscle growth wasn’t seen until testosterone levels surpassed the top of “normal” by about 20-30%."

The same article states that movement within the physiological ranges is positively correlated with fat loss:

"Unlike muscle growth, researchers at the Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science did find that fluctuations of testosterone within the physiological normal range had significant effects on body fat percentage.

The higher the testosterone levels, the leaner subjects were. And conversely, the lower the testosterone levels, the fatter they were. When researchers decreased certain subjects’ testosterone levels from the baseline average of 600 ng/dl to around 300 ng/dl, they saw a dramatic 36% increase in fat mass."

 

[Nashtide]

Starting TRT later in life, this is my gym experience. First, I’m super motivated to hit the gym since being on TRT. Second, I am stronger which allows me to lift heavier thus helping with gains. Third, I feel like I recover faster. But I don’t feel like TRT has helped a ton in muscle gains.

 

[Gman86]

This is something I've been wondering about. Are you saying you didn't notice any difference in gains with FT high above lab ranges vs FT at are below lab ranges?

I read an article (looked for it, can't find it right now) that stated that within physiological ranges, muscle building ability is not significantly affected, but that there is a positive correlation to fat burning, etc as one goes up within the physiological range. The article stated that they saw increased muscle building ability once subjects levels were about 30% above the normal ranges.

Another thing I've been curious about - many guys on here tout ED or EOD injection schedules to deal with side effects. But it seems, at least on the surface, that given the same total weekly dose, that 2x/week would be better for muscle building if it spikes you into supraphysiological ranges for half the days of the week (side effects be damned). Any opinions/experience with that?

I understand the thought process behind spiking testosterone levels to get some enhanced benefit at certain times of the week, but it all equals out. If you’re injecting daily, you’ll stay at a pretty good level all the time. If you inject once a week, you’ll sky rocket your level, and be in the very supraphysiologic range for a brief time, but then you’ll be in the low range for the equal amount of time. So the benefits get negated by this low. So overall, in regards to your question, the injection frequency won’t matter.

 

[Gman86]

Thanks for the response. I take it by supra-physiological, you mean those doing cycles of steroids...not those on TRT, even if they are in the higher natural range such as 1,200 ng/dl.

I'm finding it tough to find solid information on this. I'm guessing it's probably because you can read something clinical in a scientific journal, but when it comes time for your buddies or internet bloggers to back that up as anecdotal experiences, most lifters willing to do this are either natural, heavily-juiced, or on TRT and not willing to admit to it.

Also those on TRT can probably do a cycle if they want it bad enough, then return to TRT levels afterwards to maintain the muscle. So most of those gains are done at that supra-physiological level. Leaving me once again wondering what the best plan is if you are only on TRT.

I just think with the levels of elevated testosterone, there has to be some advantage to how your body reacts. Meaning there has to be some way to take advantage of the condition compared to someone natural doing the exact same thing.

I did see a study that dealt with protein synthesis as you are saying, that concluded:


And the levels didn't seem to be that high. If I'm reading correctly:


edit...I'm going to add this study seems like it was from 1996

Just curious, are you controlling E2 at all, or letting it just be wherever it ends up being? And what is your current E2 and SHBG level? E2 has a lot to do with muscle gains, as we all pretty much know at this point.

 

[T-dog]

Just curious, are you controlling E2 at all, or letting it just be wherever it ends up being? And what is your current E2 and SHBG level? E2 has a lot to do with muscle gains, as we all pretty much know at this point.

Personally I am controlling estrogen. I take an inhibitor 3 times a week. Most of how I feel seems to be directly correlated to E being too high or too low. But I’ve had it in check for a while now.

Recent test:
My Estradiol, Sensitive is 29.5.
My SHBG is 19.2

 

[Gman86]

Personally I am controlling estrogen. I take an inhibitor 3 times a week. Most of how I feel seems to be directly correlated to E being too high or too low. But I’ve had it in check for a while now.

Recent test:
My Estradiol, Sensitive is 29.5.
My SHBG is 19.2

Ya that seems like a good range for someone with your SHBG. What’s the dose looking like?

 

[Gman86]

One interesting thing that I learned recently was that doing cardio after a workout is apparently a no no. I was listening to a podcast, and they were explaining why. I forget which podcast, but I googled it real quick and here’s an excerpt from the first link that I clicked on. The reason is basically due to cardio inhibiting Mtor. This specific article was just on the difference between doing cardio before or after a workout. That’s why it recommends doing it after. Basically because it’s even worse to do cardio before a workout. But it appears that not doing cardio before or after is preferable. The guys on the podcast said to try and not do cardio within 4 hours of a workout.

 

[Tremonti22]

My test was 139 when I started TRT 1.5 years ago. I’ve been in the gym 4 days a week ever since my 1st injection. I’ve gained 14 lbs of muscle & I lifted for many months prior to TRT. Getting my levels right absolutely helped me gain muscle

 

[Nashtide]

One interesting thing that I learned recently was that doing cardio after a workout is apparently a no no. I was listening to a podcast, and they were explaining why. I forget which podcast, but I googled it real quick and here’s an excerpt from the first link that I clicked on. The reason is basically due to cardio inhibiting Mtor. This specific article was just on the difference between doing cardio before or after a workout. That’s why it recommends doing it after. Basically because it’s even worse to do cardio before a workout. But it appears that not doing cardio before or after is preferable. The guys on the podcast said to try and not do cardio within 4 hours of a workout.

I always do cardio after lifting. I’m glad that’s the preferred method.