TRT+ other medications

One factor that you may not be considering is the impact of trt on leydig cells. If around 20-25% of aromatase in males happens there, then clearly any degradation in the ability of those cells to function would(or at least should I would imagine) impact aromatase abilities.
Your comment touches on a very interesting phenomenon with hCG that has puzzled me: hCG monotherapy is capable of producing high physiologic levels of testosterone. It is not uncommon for men to produce 600, 800, 1000 ng/dL or higher testosterone with hCG monotherapy. However, when hCG is added to TRT, you're lucky to get more than a 100 ng/dL bump of total testosterone. Why?

I dug into it this morning: "There’s credible evidence that exogenous androgen itself directly dampens Leydig-cell steroidogenesis, creating a testis‑level brake that helps explain the small ΔT you see when hCG is layered onto TRT."

and

"Multiple lines show direct, AR‑dependent suppression of Leydig steroidogenic machinery and reduced LHCGR/cAMP signaling capacity with high androgen exposure, alongside classic hCG desensitization biology. That constellation makes it plausible that hCG adds little serum T on top of TRT, while still driving noticeable E2. (ResearchGate, Oxford Academic, PMC, PMC)"

The full story here:

1) Androgen receptor–mediated short-loop feedback inside Leydig cells.
High testosterone activates AR in Leydig cells and represses cAMP‑stimulated steroidogenic genes (e.g., CYP17A1, CYP11A1, STAR) and increases cAMP phosphodiesterases, lowering cAMP signaling efficiency. In rats, pharmacologic T reduced STAR, CYP11A1, CYP17A1, TSPO, SCARB1, and depressed hCG‑stimulated androgen output, while upregulating AR and HSD3B. Direct in‑vitro T reproduced much of this repression, showing a testis‑intrinsic effect, not only pituitary feedback. Reviews also describe this as a Leydig “short feedback loop.” (ResearchGate, Oxford Academic, PMC)


Mechanistic implication: under TRT, Leydig cells are chronically AR‑activated and biased toward lower responsiveness (and toward progesterone→androgen conversion via ↑3β‑HSD), so a modest hCG pulse adds little extra testosterone to the circulation.


2) Gonadotropin receptor/signaling desensitization with sustained stimulation.
Leydig cells show time‑ and dose‑dependent loss of LHCGR (LH/hCG receptor) and downstream signaling after exposure to hCG, with reduced steroidogenic response even to distal cAMP agonists — a classic homologous and postreceptor desensitization. In intact animals and MA‑10 cells this follows hours to days of exposure and then gradually resensitizes. On TRT, endogenous LH is already suppressed; adding intermittent hCG can still cause acute E2/T bursts followed by partial desensitization, limiting additional T output between doses. (PMC)


3) Structural and substrate constraints under LH deprivation.
Chronic LH suppression (as on TRT) shrinks Leydig functional capacity (less SER, cholesterol transport proteins) and drastically lowers intratesticular T (ITT); hCG restores ITT dose‑dependently but you need substantial receptor drive to get back to baseline capacity. In men given 200 mg TE weekly, ITT fell ~94%; 125/250/500 IU hCG qod restored ITT to ~75%, ~93%, and ~126% of baseline, respectively. That rescue of ITT mainly supports spermatogenesis; serum T barely moves because the circulating pool is already dominated by exogenous T. (PubMed)


4) Kinetics favor estradiol spikes over large serum T bumps.
After a single hCG dose in men, E2 peaks at ~24 h, whereas serum T peaks ~72 h and is more blunted in men with higher baseline LH (a proxy for impaired Leydig reserve). Under TRT, with Leydig cells partially down‑regulated, you still see ample E2 (Leydig and peripheral aromatase) but only a small serum T increment (~100 ng/dL) because: (a) testicular T output is muted by items 1–3; (b) much of the incremental androgen is aromatized; and (c) the added T is small relative to the exogenous T baseline. (PubMed)


5) Leydig cells are outside the blood–testis barrier.
So systemic androgens (and hCG) can directly reach Leydig cells, consistent with the local AR‑mediated repression observed above. (PMC)




So, to your core question​


Is there suppression of Leydig activity in the face of high circulating T? Evidence?

Yes. Multiple lines show direct, AR‑dependent suppression of Leydig steroidogenic machinery and reduced LHCGR/cAMP signaling capacity with high androgen exposure, alongside classic hCG desensitization biology. That constellation makes it plausible that hCG adds little serum T on top of TRT, while still driving noticeable E2. (ResearchGate, Oxford Academic, PMC, PMC)




Caveats (skeptical view)​


  • Most mechanistic data are rodent or cell‑line; human confirmation is indirect (hCG test kinetics, ITT studies). Still, the directionality is consistent. (PubMed, PubMed)
  • The intensity of repression likely depends on TRT dose, trough levels, and time on therapy; intermittent lower‑dose TRT may permit more Leydig responsiveness than steady high levels. (Inference from mechanisms above.) (ResearchGate, PMC)
  • Obesity, insulin resistance, leptin, and local cytokines can further blunt Leydig responses independent of TRT. If present, they’d magnify the small ΔT phenomenon. (Oxford Academic, PMC, Oxford Academic)



If you wanted to test the hypothesis clinically​


  1. hCG stimulation while on TRT: measure T, E2 at 0, 24, 72 h after a standardized hCG dose; compare with the same protocol after a TRT washout (if clinically acceptable). Expect larger T AUC off TRT, with earlier/larger E2 peaks in both states. (PubMed)
  2. Markers of Leydig capacity: 17‑OHP and ITT (if accessible via fine‑needle aspiration) before/after a few weeks of low‑dose hCG on top of TRT; compare to Coviello dosing. (PubMed, PubMed)
  3. Dose–response: if the goal is fertility/ITT preservation, titrate to the minimal hCG that normalizes ITT or 17‑OHP, accepting that serum T may barely change. (PubMed)
 
Dr. Crisler implemented a daily protocol of low dose HCG years ago for that very reason. Personally, I do 125 IU's every other day. That works very well for me. IMHO, based on personal experience, HCG is by far the most effective and pleasurable element in my HRT protocol.

I don't know if anyone is following this thread by MM:


Interesting possibilities.
 
Your comment touches on a very interesting phenomenon with hCG that has puzzled me: hCG monotherapy is capable of producing high physiologic levels of testosterone. It is not uncommon for men to produce 600, 800, 1000 ng/dL or higher testosterone with hCG monotherapy. However, when hCG is added to TRT, you're lucky to get more than a 100 ng/dL bump of total testosterone. Why?

I dug into it this morning: "There’s credible evidence that exogenous androgen itself directly dampens Leydig-cell steroidogenesis, creating a testis‑level brake that helps explain the small ΔT you see when hCG is layered onto TRT."

and

"Multiple lines show direct, AR‑dependent suppression of Leydig steroidogenic machinery and reduced LHCGR/cAMP signaling capacity with high androgen exposure, alongside classic hCG desensitization biology. That constellation makes it plausible that hCG adds little serum T on top of TRT, while still driving noticeable E2. (ResearchGate, Oxford Academic, PMC, PMC)"

The full story here:
Your protocol had no chance of success.
Two options?
Option 1) Carefully sprinkle T on top of hcg.
Option 2) Carefully sprinkle hcg on top of T.

Add:
Considering the impact of E2 on your libido and the significant physique benefits you experienced on TRT.... ,ust a peer-reviewer thought: how about exploring lower T doses for TRT?
 
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Your protocol had no chance of success.
How do you figure? I would say the combination of ~100 mg TRT weekly with ~1000 iu hCG weekly is one of the most broadly successful protocols out there.

Two options?
Option 1) Carefully sprinkle T on top of hcg.
Option 2) Carefully sprinkle hcg on top of T.
Yes, you're preaching to the choir my friend.

Considering the impact of E2 on your libido and the significant physique benefits you experienced on TRT.... ,ust a peer-reviewer thought: how about exploring lower T doses for TRT?
I'm doing that currently, as 15 mg/day is significantly less than I've used any time recently. I do have historical experience going as low as 10 mg daily for an extended period, which was not useful enough to justify being on TRT (I prefer being off completely to a dose that low).
 
How do you figure?

I thought you wanted to try the HCG-base protocol
I would say the combination of ~100 mg TRT weekly with ~1000 iu hCG weekly is one of the most broadly successful protocols out there.
You are right, 500-1000IU per week seems standard on top of TRT


Yes, you're preaching to the choir my friend.


I'm doing that currently, as 15 mg/day is significantly less than I've used any time recently. I do have historical experience going as low as 10 mg daily for an extended period, which was not useful enough to justify being on TRT (I prefer being off completely to a dose that low).
I understand.
 
I think this aromatase saturation happens far outside the physiological range.
....

For young men the effect becomes noticeable in the midrange of testosterone. Here are the data and plotted best-fit equations.

Screenshot 2025-07-28 at 2.31.06 PM.webp

Screenshot 2025-07-28 at 2.45.45 PM.webp
 
I had no idea how much water I was retaining. Yesterday, I noticed I was having to urinate a lot and this morning.. no facial puffiness. This is day 5 of near halfing my daily dose and I am not disliking it.

I wonder if I will notice anything in the gym tonight? We will see.
 
For young men the effect becomes noticeable in the midrange of testosterone. Here are the data and plotted best-fit equations.

View attachment 52402
View attachment 52403
I remember this. Sparse data above 800. After what time? Thanks for also posting the scatterplot. The origin is not zero, could draw the blue line closer to the red.
However it nicely visualizes what is meant by saturation in this context.

I measured after about 10 months.
I'm the blue . Maybe my non-six-pack belly did the trick.

I'm sort of an outlier in this dataset. Your statement was correct, there is a saturation effect. Within the physiological range it looks linear with a lot of variation.
Wonder what dose some guys took when they got an E2 of 100....
 

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I had no idea how much water I was retaining. Yesterday, I noticed I was having to urinate a lot and this morning.. no facial puffiness. This is day 5 of near halfing my daily dose and I am not disliking it.

I wonder if I will notice anything in the gym tonight? We will see.
Glad to hear your protocol seems to be improving.

I personally think that really high levels of test aren’t really needed(though I guess “really high” is subjective based on who you’re asking) to hold on the muscle you’ve already built. And the longer you’ve had it, the more your body is likely to hold on to it. Higher levels are definitely great for building, but for people who’ve worked out for years, as long as you keep your test closer to the top of the range and keep working out your body will probably hold on to most or all of it. If your energy is good enough to get through the workout and you’re moving good volume then you should be fine. And if you have a bad workout here and there, think about what some other factors could’ve been like sleep, diet, and other variables. Also, a good preworkout and creatine can go a long way if you aren’t already incorporating those.
 
No
Glad to hear your protocol seems to be improving.

I personally think that really high levels of test aren’t really needed(though I guess “really high” is subjective based on who you’re asking) to hold on the muscle you’ve already built. And the longer you’ve had it, the more your body is likely to hold on to it. Higher levels are definitely great for building, but for people who’ve worked out for years, as long as you keep your test closer to the top of the range and keep working out your body will probably hold on to most or all of it. If your energy is good enough to get through the workout and you’re moving good volume then you should be fine. And if you have a bad workout here and there, think about what some other factors could’ve been like sleep, diet, and other variables. Also, a good preworkout and creatine can go a long way if you aren’t already incorporating those.
Being a lifelong gym rat, I have developed very good muscle memory. For various reasons, my workout routine suffers some occasional lapses. I always bounce right back and am right back where I was in short order. I'm 68, so that's a good thing, all those hours are banked and are like a savings account. Creatine and proper diet are a big factor to that as well. Creatine is an amazing substance. A little-known fact is that creatine can aid in the conversion of T to DHT:


We can get deep into the weeds discussing technical and theoretical aspects of HRT. I used to spend hours researching and in discussions (arguments)... now it just gives me a headache. The basic secret to HRT is to figure out what level of total T you need to get the correct (for you) level of free T. HCG needs to be dialed in. As discussed above, frequent smaller doses of HCG give better results for those taking testosterone. HCG monotherapy is different. Start with the lowest dose and work your way up. Labs are crucial in the beginning so you can determine set points and find your sweet spot. Check your SHBG, but don't obsess over it as it can be adjusted for. DHT is extremely important for sexual function and overall male mojo, get it tested often at first.

Remember, once you add exogenous testosterone you are altering the natural balance of things. Something that is not discussed enough is the effect on neurotransmitters. There are things you can do to keep them in balance. To be honest, I think a lot of the complaints from guys are neurotransmitter related. The right probiotics can help a lot.


Phil stated the most important facts of all above:

"And if you have a bad workout here and there, think about what some other factors could’ve been like sleep, diet, and other variables."
Sleep quality is the magic silver bullet to everything. Good sleep is priceless.
 
No

Being a lifelong gym rat, I have developed very good muscle memory. For various reasons, my workout routine suffers some occasional lapses. I always bounce right back and am right back where I was in short order. I'm 68, so that's a good thing, all those hours are banked and are like a savings account. Creatine and proper diet are a big factor to that as well. Creatine is an amazing substance. A little-known fact is that creatine can aid in the conversion of T to DHT:


We can get deep into the weeds discussing technical and theoretical aspects of HRT. I used to spend hours researching and in discussions (arguments)... now it just gives me a headache. The basic secret to HRT is to figure out what level of total T you need to get the correct (for you) level of free T. HCG needs to be dialed in. As discussed above, frequent smaller doses of HCG give better results for those taking testosterone. HCG monotherapy is different. Start with the lowest dose and work your way up. Labs are crucial in the beginning so you can determine set points and find your sweet spot. Check your SHBG, but don't obsess over it as it can be adjusted for. DHT is extremely important for sexual function and overall male mojo, get it tested often at first.

Remember, once you add exogenous testosterone you are altering the natural balance of things. Something that is not discussed enough is the effect on neurotransmitters. There are things you can do to keep them in balance. To be honest, I think a lot of the complaints from guys are neurotransmitter related. The right probiotics can help a lot.


Phil stated the most important facts of all above:

"And if you have a bad workout here and there, think about what some other factors could’ve been like sleep, diet, and other variables."
Sleep quality is the magic silver bullet to everything. Good sleep is priceless.
Nice! I hope to still be at that level when I’m in my 60’s(currently in my mid 40’s). I have come a long way though and have been working out consistently for over 15 years, and at this point I’m in a similar boat to you as far as bouncing back. Science and medicine is learning a lot about epigenetics now and I think there is a LOT to that aspect of health. Everyone has genetics that push their overall condition to a certain spot, but habits can push us very far in different directions(both good and bad) via epigenetics and other factors. And the more consistently you keep your body stimulated by positive forces the more it drifts your condition towards your goal, and the more it becomes your baseline. For example I was always skinny and it took me forever to put on good weight, but over the past 15 years I’ve put on about 20 pounds of good weight. Doesn’t sound like much and really isn’t for a lot of people, but I’m right where I want to be…. but the point of bringing that up is to illustrate the slow and steady approach(and what I think epigenetics will further confirm as we learn more). Point being, since I’ve trained my body over 15 years to be at that this state, if someone were to run a cycle for a year and put on the same amount of mass, they’d most likely lose it a lot faster than I would if we both had to stop training for an extended amount of time. Reason being, my genes have been in this state for a much longer amount of time. Obviously the testosterone would help, but I also think there’s an epigenetic impact of that which we don’t really understand at all. Completely theoretical on my part though, and I don’t even know if there’s a great way to test that impact at the moment. But I think that ties in to what you were saying with the “savings account” analogy, and that’s a good way to look at it. Once people see it as a lifelong objective it gets easier to bounce back and keep pushing forward.


And I agree 100% about sleep. I’m more sensitive than most when it comes to a good night sleep, and my job requires me to be extremely sharp at all times, so I have to prioritize this aspect a lot. Luckily I’ve always prioritized it though and am lucky to have very few issues on this front(perhaps due to a lifetime of good sleep hygiene which may also tie back to the epigenetics point above). But it isn’t just the mental aspect… if my sleep is poor then my workout the next day almost always suffers. And once I hit my 40’s I even started incorporating naps into my routine a few days/week if needed. I think that’s a key habit that is often overlooked when it comes to health. A lot of places with better health than America take naps much more regularly and I’d say it has extensive benefits on a mental and physical level.Probably more beneficial than 99% of the supplements people take.
 
Glad to hear your protocol seems to be improving.

I personally think that really high levels of test aren’t really needed(though I guess “really high” is subjective based on who you’re asking) to hold on the muscle you’ve already built. And the longer you’ve had it, the more your body is likely to hold on to it. Higher levels are definitely great for building, but for people who’ve worked out for years, as long as you keep your test closer to the top of the range and keep working out your body will probably hold on to most or all of it. If your energy is good enough to get through the workout and you’re moving good volume then you should be fine. And if you have a bad workout here and there, think about what some other factors could’ve been like sleep, diet, and other variables. Also, a good preworkout and creatine can go a long way if you aren’t already incorporating those.
My normal bench routine Is 225 two sets of 10.. I finish off with 315 for at least 6 reps.. if I’m feeling frisky then I’ll push for 7-8 in the last set. I could only go for 5 on the last set and I felt my back wanting to come off the bench for that last one.

So a little less output on a bench.

Where I was dying is tricep pushdowns.. after a warmup so it doesn’t feel like my elbows are about to explode (yall know what I’m talking about) I go three sets of 10-12 with the rope.. full stack.

I got one down and had the break the last two sets up in to four. So that’s new and I’m sore as hell today. Which is also new.

It is HOT as heck here in the panhandle and the gym was pushing 80degF so maybe that had some impact too.

I’m still going to keep the lower dose and give it a rest no matter what.

I can’t get an appointment with my urologist before my scheduled appointment at the end of September to talk to him about HCG. If anyone has any recommendations on obtaining that, preferably with a prescription please PM me. I worry otherwise, I’m open to suggestions.

I agree on the retention. From early on, around 15yrs old from 93 on I was fortunate to come up in a football program where the coaches were legit on strength training. We spent as much time in the gym as we did on the field and I was able to keep that training up in to my late 20’s and then - career, family, kids got in the way. But when I started TRT that size was back pretty quick within 6 weeks. Especially in my quads, triceps and biceps. I guess that’s why most people recommend to get as big as you can get natural before you add anything.

Tonight is squat so we will see how that goes.
If your plan is to drop the AI, which it should be, then I’d say do it immediately and just try to ride it out and let your body adapt.
I had maybe .25-.35 last Monday.. I haven’t taken any since. I’m not feeling any sides right now. I’ll know when I start squalling at ASPCA commercials or screaming at ppl at red lights.. kidding - not kidding.

If it does become an issue just back off the T some and ride it out?
 

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