Trt just isn't for me?

[Kimpe]

Little something about myself:
Male 30y
182cm 85kg
Moderately active, lift weights 3x week and do bjj 2x week
Sleep with a CPAP

I've been struggling with trying to decide if I should quit trt completely or not.

I started trt few years ago because of having testosterone at the bottom of the range, and having symptoms including loss of energy and low libido.
I had ran a cycle of ostarine a while ago before that. It was the time when it was claimed that sarms wouldn't effect your hormones, which of course was bullshit.

I was put on trt, at 125mg test e once a week. No AI.
Bloods about 48h after injection with that dose are:
Testosterone: 24.5 nmol/l (8-29)
Free testosterone: 397 pmol/l (155-800)
SHBG: 30 nmol/l (15-95)
Estrogen: 0.10 nmol/l (<0.15)

I've been on that dose for about two years.
The problem is that I haven't really felt that much of an improvement during this, I've actually gotten more side effects than benefits.
Sides are:
-Legs quite often feel like they weight a ton
-Still no libido
-Elevated blood pressure
-Heart palpitations (which luckily taurine has helped to get rid of so far *knock on wood*)
-Elevated heart rate, and heart pounding hard when exercising
-Mood swings
-Anxiety amd shaky hands
-Few episodes of ocular migraines. I thought I was having a stroke and called an ambulance. It was scary.
List goes on.. Actually one weird thing is that unlike many people who get better progress at the gym on trt, I've had the opposite happen.
During my trt I haven't been able to make any progress at the gym. I've actually lost strength and endurance. It's like my body can't handle exercise as well while on trt.

I tried coming off cold turkey because my doc wouldn't prescribe hcg or serms. He told me that you just need to let your body do it's job. Probably going to see another doctor in two weeks about that.
Anyways, I was off for two months during which I actually felt better on some aspects. Blood pressure was better, legs didn't feel like bricks, resting heart rate was below 50, and my heart wouldn't pound like crazy when exercising. I even had few crazy libido spikes.

The problem is that I was getting pretty bad brain fog from time to time and couldn't really focus on anything. It was even difficult to read anything. I got bloods and they were the following:


Testosterone: 4.2 nmol/l (8-29)
Free testosterone: 68 pmol/l (155-800)
SHBG: 30 nmol/l (15-95)

So as you can see I wasn't recovering without pct.
My doc put me back on testosterone enanthate two weeks ago, and this week I've felt moody, tired, had tired legs again, heart pounding harder and resting heart rate is higher. I also feel anxious again.

Any feedback or opinions what I should do?
My current options are:
A) see another doctor and hope they will prescribe pct meds
B) Maybe try upping the dose? Since my free T isn't that high
C)?

PS. One huge thing. I just found out that my natural T taken 2013 way before any of this was whopping 27 nmol/l!! That's incredible, and also makes me wonder if I could try getting my own production back.

Thanks if anyone takes time to read this.

 

[bochinit]

Having trouble only on 125mg per week? This caught my attention, I on other foruns and thas not the first time I saw the same kinda of problem the last two days. Ill stay here to see what the guys gomna say bout it to understand too. But I dont recomend use of anything too if you want to recover. And I defenily dont recomend you to up the dosage, dont mess with high bp or a stroke.

 

[Systemlord]

Estrogen: 0.10 nmol/l (<15)

Your estrogen low which is causing all your symptoms. You may lack sufficient aromatase enzymes to convert T->E2 and you need HCG to make TRT work.

I had all of your symptoms with low estrogen including the migraines.

You need to fire your doc!

 

[Cataceous]

In addition to the low estradiol, the once-weekly TRT dosing may be a problem. Your half-life for testosterone enanthate may be under five days. Based on your lab work this would put your pre-injection trough testosterone at less than half of what was measured 48 hours post-injection, which is only 12 nMol/L (~350 ng/dL), down to hypogonadal levels. Consider injecting half the dose every 3.5 days.

 

[bochinit]

Gotta say that when on 100mg or less per week or even missing my shoots I became angry, depressed and with HP. I solve that increasing the dosage, and know I understand the correlation. I must have lower E2 conversion too.

 

[Kimpe]

Your estrogen low which is causing all your symptoms. You may lack sufficient aromatase enzymes to convert T->E2 and you need HCG to make TRT work.

I had all of your symptoms with low estrogen including the migraines.

You need to fire your doc!

Oh crap sorry, typo. I ment to write <0.15.

 

[Chroniclowe]

Little something about myself:
Male 30y
182cm 85kg
Moderately active, lift weights 3x week and do bjj 2x week
Sleep with a CPAP

I've been struggling with trying to decide if I should quit trt completely or not.

I started trt few years ago because of having testosterone at the bottom of the range, and having symptoms including loss of energy and low libido.
I had ran a cycle of ostarine a while ago before that. It was the time when it was claimed that sarms wouldn't effect your hormones, which of course was bullshit.

I was put on trt, at 125mg test e once a week. No AI.
Bloods about 48h after injection with that dose are:
Testosterone: 24.5 nmol/l (8-29)
Free testosterone: 397 pmol/l (155-800)
SHBG: 30 nmol/l (15-95)
Estrogen: 0.10 nmol/l (<0.15)

I've been on that dose for about two years.
The problem is that I haven't really felt that much of an improvement during this, I've actually gotten more side effects than benefits.
Sides are:
-Legs quite often feel like they weight a ton
-Still no libido
-Elevated blood pressure
-Heart palpitations (which luckily taurine has helped to get rid of so far *knock on wood*)
-Elevated heart rate, and heart pounding hard when exercising
-Mood swings
-Anxiety amd shaky hands
-Few episodes of ocular migraines. I thought I was having a stroke and called an ambulance. It was scary.
List goes on.. Actually one weird thing is that unlike many people who get better progress at the gym on trt, I've had the opposite happen.
During my trt I haven't been able to make any progress at the gym. I've actually lost strength and endurance. It's like my body can't handle exercise as well while on trt.

I tried coming off cold turkey because my doc wouldn't prescribe hcg or serms. He told me that you just need to let your body do it's job. Probably going to see another doctor in two weeks about that.
Anyways, I was off for two months during which I actually felt better on some aspects. Blood pressure was better, legs didn't feel like bricks, resting heart rate was below 50, and my heart wouldn't pound like crazy when exercising. I even had few crazy libido spikes.

The problem is that I was getting pretty bad brain fog from time to time and couldn't really focus on anything. It was even difficult to read anything. I got bloods and they were the following:


Testosterone: 4.2 nmol/l (8-29)
Free testosterone: 68 pmol/l (155-800)
SHBG: 30 nmol/l (15-95)

So as you can see I wasn't recovering without pct.
My doc put me back on testosterone enanthate two weeks ago, and this week I've felt moody, tired, had tired legs again, heart pounding harder and resting heart rate is higher. I also feel anxious again.

Any feedback or opinions what I should do?
My current options are:
A) see another doctor and hope they will prescribe pct meds
B) Maybe try upping the dose? Since my free T isn't that high
C)?

PS. One huge thing. I just found out that my natural T taken 2013 way before any of this was whopping 27 nmol/l!! That's incredible, and also makes me wonder if I could try getting my own production back.

Thanks if anyone takes time to read this.

Ensinnäkin, ootko ikinä mittaillu sun cortisoli tasoja? Noi sydämentykykset, väsymys yms kuulostaa vähän siltä että cortisolit ei oo optimaaliset. Tai sit voi yksinkertasesti vaan johtua tosta sun liian pitkästä pistovälistä, ja arvot pitäs mitata AINA juuri ennen next piikkiä. Ite lyön enan joka toinen päivä, heittelee muuten olot liikaa. Löhtisin sinunakin jakamaan vaa suoraa annoksen. Enan puoliintumisaika on nykytutkimusten mukaan noin 4-4.5 päivää. Viikon pistoväli on liian pitkä jos oot teston hypermetabolisoija niinkuin minä. Alota vaikka jakamaan annos 3pv välein tuut yllättymään, tarpeen voit nostaa annostakin, tollanen 125mg/wk on ainakin itelle auttamatta liian vöhän. Ja lääkäri vaihtoon jos on noin uuno lääkäri että kuvittelee että ena kantelee viikon varsinkaan tollasella annoksella. Harvalla kantaa.

 

[Kimpe]

Ensinnäkin, ootko ikinä mittaillu sun cortisoli tasoja? Noi sydämentykykset, väsymys yms kuulostaa vähän siltä että cortisolit ei oo optimaaliset. Tai sit voi yksinkertasesti vaan johtua tosta sun liian pitkästä pistovälistä, ja arvot pitäs mitata AINA juuri ennen next piikkiä. Ite lyön enan joka toinen päivä, heittelee muuten olot liikaa. Löhtisin sinunakin jakamaan vaa suoraa annoksen. Enan puoliintumisaika on nykytutkimusten mukaan noin 4-4.5 päivää. Viikon pistoväli on liian pitkä jos oot teston hypermetabolisoija niinkuin minä. Alota vaikka jakamaan annos 3pv välein tuut yllättymään, tarpeen voit nostaa annostakin, tollanen 125mg/wk on ainakin itelle auttamatta liian vöhän.

Kappas! Tuleekohan siitä sanomista, jos ei kirjoita englanniksi? No joka tapauksessa.
Kortisolit oli viimeksi 436 nmol/l (138-690)
Tämän kokeilun aloitinkin itseasiassa jakamalla kahteen viikottaiseen pistokseen, eli 62,5mg 2x viikkoon. Olot ehkä jopa vähän nihkeemmät, tosin voihan se olla että tästä muuttuu ajan kanssa. Onhan se tietty pieni määrä kerralla, kun tuo 125mg annoskin nostaa kuitenkin tasot vain hieman keskiarvon yli.
Yksi toisella foorumilla näkemäni vaihtoehto olisi tietty iskeä tuo 125mg vain useammin, vaikkapa joka viides päivä.

 

[Vince]

First of all, ootko ever mittaillu sun Cortisol levels? Noi sydämentykykset, fatigue, etc. sounds a little bit like that cortisol is not optimal oo. Or sit alone can not be attributed to a single Fund sun too long between the plug and the values pitäs ALWAYS be measured just before the next peak. Ite ENA will smite every other day, otherwise throws conditions too. Löhtisin sinunakin share VAA direct dose. Enan half-life of the present studies suggest that about 4 to 4.5 days. Week stitch interval is too long if you're Teston hypermetabolisoija as I do. Alota even share their dose every 3 days tuut be surprised, you can raise the necessary dose of the jacket, tollanen 125mg / wk at least I myself had way too vöhän. And the doctor if the exchange is about uuno doctor that imagines that ena complains weeks, especially in the public a dose of batteries. Few stand.

First of all, ootko ever mittaillu sun Cortisol levels? Noi sydämentykykset, fatigue, etc. sounds a little bit like that cortisol is not optimal oo. Or sit alone can not be attributed to a single Fund sun too long between the plug and the values pitäs ALWAYS be measured just before the next peak. Ite ENA will smite every other day, otherwise throws conditions too. Löhtisin sinunakin share VAA direct dose. Enan half-life of the present studies suggest that about 4 to 4.5 days. Week stitch interval is too long if you're Teston hypermetabolisoija as I do. Alota even share their dose every 3 days tuut be surprised, you can raise the necessary dose of the jacket, tollanen 125mg / wk at least I myself had way too vöhän. And the doctor if the exchange is about uuno doctor that imagines that ena complains weeks, especially in the public a dose of batteries. Few stand.

 

[Vince]

Lo and behold! Will it be to say, if you can not write in English? Well anyway.
Cortisol last 436 nmol / L (138-690)
I began this experiment, in fact dividing the two weekly injection, that is, 62,5mg 2x a week. Olot maybe even a little nihkeemmät, albeit It could it be that this will change with time. After all, it is a small amount at a time when that 125mg annoskin, however, raise the levels only slightly above average.
One of the other forum I've seen a certain option would be to strike 125mg brings only more frequently, say every five days.

Lo and behold! Will it be to say, if you can not write in English? Well anyway.
Cortisol last 436 nmol / L (138-690)
dividing this experiment casted in fact two weekly injection, a 62,5mg 2x week. Olot maybe even a little nihkeemmät, albeit It could it be that this will change with time. After all, it is a small amount at a time when that 125mg annoskin, however, raise the levels only slightly above average.
One of the other forum I've seen a certain option would be to strike 125mg brings only more frequently, say every five days.

 

[DS3]

Little something about myself:
Male 30y
182cm 85kg
Moderately active, lift weights 3x week and do bjj 2x week
Sleep with a CPAP

I've been struggling with trying to decide if I should quit trt completely or not.

I started trt few years ago because of having testosterone at the bottom of the range, and having symptoms including loss of energy and low libido.
I had ran a cycle of ostarine a while ago before that. It was the time when it was claimed that sarms wouldn't effect your hormones, which of course was bullshit.

I was put on trt, at 125mg test e once a week. No AI.
Bloods about 48h after injection with that dose are:
Testosterone: 24.5 nmol/l (8-29)
Free testosterone: 397 pmol/l (155-800)
SHBG: 30 nmol/l (15-95)
Estrogen: 0.10 nmol/l (<0.15)

I've been on that dose for about two years.
The problem is that I haven't really felt that much of an improvement during this, I've actually gotten more side effects than benefits.
Sides are:
-Legs quite often feel like they weight a ton
-Still no libido
-Elevated blood pressure
-Heart palpitations (which luckily taurine has helped to get rid of so far *knock on wood*)
-Elevated heart rate, and heart pounding hard when exercising
-Mood swings
-Anxiety amd shaky hands
-Few episodes of ocular migraines. I thought I was having a stroke and called an ambulance. It was scary.
List goes on.. Actually one weird thing is that unlike many people who get better progress at the gym on trt, I've had the opposite happen.
During my trt I haven't been able to make any progress at the gym. I've actually lost strength and endurance. It's like my body can't handle exercise as well while on trt.

I tried coming off cold turkey because my doc wouldn't prescribe hcg or serms. He told me that you just need to let your body do it's job. Probably going to see another doctor in two weeks about that.
Anyways, I was off for two months during which I actually felt better on some aspects. Blood pressure was better, legs didn't feel like bricks, resting heart rate was below 50, and my heart wouldn't pound like crazy when exercising. I even had few crazy libido spikes.

The problem is that I was getting pretty bad brain fog from time to time and couldn't really focus on anything. It was even difficult to read anything. I got bloods and they were the following:


Testosterone: 4.2 nmol/l (8-29)
Free testosterone: 68 pmol/l (155-800)
SHBG: 30 nmol/l (15-95)

So as you can see I wasn't recovering without pct.
My doc put me back on testosterone enanthate two weeks ago, and this week I've felt moody, tired, had tired legs again, heart pounding harder and resting heart rate is higher. I also feel anxious again.

Any feedback or opinions what I should do?
My current options are:
A) see another doctor and hope they will prescribe pct meds
B) Maybe try upping the dose? Since my free T isn't that high
C)?

PS. One huge thing. I just found out that my natural T taken 2013 way before any of this was whopping 27 nmol/l!! That's incredible, and also makes me wonder if I could try getting my own production back.

Thanks if anyone takes time to read this.

So far you have received feedback stating that your E2 is too low and that your 1x weekly dosing protocol is suboptimal. Both are reasonable assessments of your situation. E2 is unlikely the 'sole' cause of your symptoms, but low E2 can certainly be a key player in them.

I would go see a TRT specialist; plenty of them out there. if you are cool with online consultations, Defy has a good reputation.

 

[SilverSurfer]

You mention 85 kg, how tall are you? Also, what do your thyroid labs look like? Are you on any medications of any kind?

 

[Stylo]

Up your dose and switch to EOD shots. You’re on a slow roller coaster. Higher T should result in higher E and free T. 150mg or 160mg a week is not going to give you issues. What’s your hematocrit looking like at your current dose?

 

[DS3]

Up your dose and switch to EOD shots. You’re on a slow roller coaster. Higher T should result in higher E and free T. 150mg or 160mg a week is not going to give you issues. What’s your hematocrit looking like at your current dose?

I don’t disagree with your advice, but just adding in the fact that this isn’t necessarily the definitive solution. EOD or ED shots is a standard practice now in TRT, but that doesn’t mean it’s the answer for this guy; simply a best practice that you are suggesting. Raising the dosage of T may help by increasing estrogen, but it may not. Nothing is an infallible plan.

I would agree with @Stylo though and say that id try this approach before giving up.

 

[Kimpe]

You mention 85 kg, how tall are you? Also, what do your thyroid labs look like? Are you on any medications of any kind?

TSH: 2.65 mIU/l (0.40-4.00)
T4: 15.80 pmol/l (10-21)
Medication I take is an ARB called Candesartan, for blood pressure.

Up your dose and switch to EOD shots. You’re on a slow roller coaster. Higher T should result in higher E and free T. 150mg or 160mg a week is not going to give you issues. What’s your hematocrit looking like at your current dose?

HKR: 46.2% (39.0-50.0)
Hemoglobin: 164 g/l (134-167)
I'm actually trying 2x shots now, 62.5mg Mon & Thu and so far feel just more tired compared to once a week.

 

[Kimpe]

I've decided to try getting off completely.
Reasons are:
-Anxiety, chest pain and palpitations coming back while being on trt.
-I've noticed trt makes me emotionally unavailable
-I'm just sick of injecting myself.
-the fact that I found out my free testosterone was whopping 1125 (155–800) before I ever touched anabolics or trt. Goddamn I was stupid for messing with my hormones in the first place.
I just hope there hasn't been any permanent damage.

 

[fifty]

You’ll be fine.

 

[at15]

you just lived like this for 2 years never changing your dose or protocol?

 

[SilverSurfer]

I've decided to try getting off completely.
Reasons are:
-Anxiety, chest pain and palpitations coming back while being on trt.
-I've noticed trt makes me emotionally unavailable
-I'm just sick of injecting myself.
-the fact that I found out my free testosterone was whopping 1125 (155–800) before I ever touched anabolics or trt. Goddamn I was stupid for messing with my hormones in the first place.
I just hope there hasn't been any permanent damage.

it’s pretty clear you were never able to deal with TRT or normal T levels, so it’s good you’re going back to being low T.

 

[Kimpe]

it’s pretty clear you were never able to deal with TRT or normal T levels, so it’s good you’re going back to being low T.

And what exactly did you mean by this?
Im hoping my levels will recover so I wouldn't be low T and wouldn't need trt at all.
Normal levels were fine. Trt causes side effects for me, and low T was after messing with anabolics.