Prop vs Cypionate for E.O.D Injections..

[WhatSayYou89]

If someone was swapping to more frequent injections (E.O.D) to help keep e2 from spiking as much, would it be better to swap to propionate?

From my understanding most of the e2 conversion is from the part of the oil that helps give testosterone prop/eth is longer half life.

I mean if you’re already injecting that often, would it be dumb not to swap to it?

 

[Cataceous]

Most of the data would suggest avoiding EOD propionate as monotherapy. It should be daily or not at all. The apparent half-life is around 0.8 days, which means that even daily use causes unnaturally large variations in serum testosterone.

There's no evidence that in normal use different esters yield significantly different average amounts of estradiol when doses are normalized for testosterone content. However, peak and trough hormone levels can be markedly more pronounced with shorter esters.

I've come to really like a daily injection of an enanthate/propionate blend, which is designed to mimic a physiological variation in serum testosterone of about +/-24% about the mean.

Regardless, EOD cypionate or enanthate is a perfectly reasonable protocol, providing very stable hormone levels for most.

 

[WhatSayYou89]

Most of the data would suggest avoiding EOD propionate as monotherapy. It should be daily or not at all. The apparent half-life is around 0.8 days, which means that even daily use causes unnaturally large variations in serum testosterone.

There's no evidence that in normal use different esters yield significantly different average amounts of estradiol when doses are normalized for testosterone content. However, peak and trough hormone levels can be markedly more pronounced with shorter esters.

I've come to really like a daily injection of an enanthate/propionate blend, which is designed to mimic a physiological variation in serum testosterone of about +/-24% about the mean.

Regardless, EOD cypionate or enanthate is a perfectly reasonable protocol, providing very stable hormone levels for most.

Awesome answer. Covered everything I asked and then some stuff I forgot to ask!

I was curious about the half life and overall variations with prop.

How long/different types of protocols did you try out before you ended up with the prop/eth daily injections. Did you try E.O.D with cyp/prop?

Any major differences in how you felt when you swapped to your current protocol vs E.O.D?

 

[Vince]

Testosterone half life table

www.excelmale.com

 

[Cataceous]

...
How long/different types of protocols did you try out before you ended up with the prop/eth daily injections. Did you try E.O.D with cyp/prop?

Any major differences in how you felt when you swapped to your current protocol vs E.O.D?

For some years I did reasonably well with EOD enanthate along with EOD hCG. But there was some decline in libido and motivation also seemed to have declined under TRT. So last year I started experimenting with daily propionate. The results were really inconsistent. I had an amazing couple weeks when I started it, but the rest of the year was quite variable and not that great. My lab work had revealed these really large serum variations with propionate, so I started experimenting with blends.

I have this hypothesis to test, which is that some of the benefits of testosterone are tied more to peak levels than to average levels. This would explain why it's so easy for guys to get into trouble with TRT. For one thing, they're setting trough levels at what peaks normally should be. With infrequent injections this means peaks are really high, along with average levels, maybe explaining high hematocrit, etc. Anyway, with daily injections of a propionate/enanthate blend I try to emulate nature as much as possible, with a daily peak that is reasonable, 600-800 ng/dL, while allowing levels to fall by 40% or so as they would naturally.

 

[WhatSayYou89]

For some years I did reasonably well with EOD enanthate along with EOD hCG. But there was some decline in libido and motivation also seemed to have declined under TRT. So last year I started experimenting with daily propionate. The results were really inconsistent. I had an amazing couple weeks when I started it, but the rest of the year was quite variable and not that great. My lab work had revealed these really large serum variations with propionate, so I started experimenting with blends.

I have this hypothesis to test, which is that some of the benefits of testosterone are tied more to peak levels than to average levels. This would explain why it's so easy for guys to get into trouble with TRT. For one thing, they're setting trough levels at what peaks normally should be. With infrequent injections this means peaks are really high, along with average levels, maybe explaining high hematocrit, etc. Anyway, with daily injections of a propionate/enanthate blend I try to emulate nature as much as possible, with a daily peak that is reasonable, 600-800 ng/dL, while allowing levels to fall by 40% or so as they would naturally.

I've been pondering about this as well.

From reading other peoples trt journeys, along with the trial and errors on myself I have found that the body doesn't seem to react as well to homeostasis testosterone levels as it does with your daily rise n fall.

By that I mean if someone starts the day off with 800 test level and ends the day at 725 or 750, basically the same ball park range then it feels much different than it would if it slowly fall throughout the day. In this scenario the fall would feel better overall, as long as its not something drastic like going from 800 to 300.

This is still just in the theory phase but I can see myself trying something similar to your protocol in the future.

 

[Ezskanken]

On paper EOD with prop makes sense. But reality is you will hate pinning yourself EOD even with a slin pin. IM or SubQ won’t matter. It’s the process that’ll get old. 1x a week with cyp/enan is good enough. Even sust will do. Make sure you have a good AI, or blood work to base dosage off of.

 

[Jason Sypolt]

Don’t do it. Prop is too unpredictable and inconsistent and you will regret it.
Stick to the longer esters, and if you want a boost then consider the T nasal gel that Empower sells. 8 clicks in each nostril gives around a 800-1000ng temporary boost for a few hours within 10-15 minutes and there is no crash like with Prop.

 

[fifty]

Empower sells natesto now? Estimated price?

 

[Jason Sypolt]

It is different from Natesto which is a spray and this is a gel (to me it looks like a white cream, but they say gel).

it is around $60 for a pen through Defy. I love the stuff. You can take it 15 minutes before workouts or sex and you get a huge boost. Not for primary treatment because you would have to use it several times a day like you would with Natesto, but this can be prescribed PRN.

 

[fifty]

$60 a pen? How many doses in a pen?

 

[Jason Sypolt]

60. 8 clicks is one full dose and 0.05mL. The pen says 3mL in total.

Sometimes I only do a half dose and can still feel it.

 

[madman]

Just to clear any confusion.

Natesto is a thixotropic gel that is applied using an applicator that releases the gel through the dispenser pump and is not sprayed.

Natesto uses an ultra-thin layer of bio-adhesive gel which has a thickness comparable to the natural mucus layer in the nose.

The surge in high physiological levels of testosterone will peak within 45 minutes post-application (half-life 10-100 min).

Each dose of NATESTO® resulted in a short-term return of testosterone to the upper normal range (800 ng/dL; 28 nmol/L) irrespective of how low the patient’s baseline testosterone was prior to the study.

* NATESTO® - 1 pump is 5.5 mg testosterone

* Dose of NATESTO® used 2 pumps (11 mg testosterone)


If you want to use for a temporary short-term boost in your T levels than you would need a dose of 10+mg to achieve a significant peak.

When used strictly for trt than the proper way to take Natesto to achieve maximum effectiveness is that it needs to be applied 3 times daily (33 mg/day).

 

[WhatSayYou89]

It is different from Natesto which is a spray and this is a gel (to me it looks like a white cream, but they say gel).

it is around $60 for a pen through Defy. I love the stuff. You can take it 15 minutes before workouts or sex and you get a huge boost. Not for primary treatment because you would have to use it several times a day like you would with Natesto, but this can be prescribed PRN.

Okay Jason you talked me into it.

I’ll let Defy hook me up with a free sample.

6 months worth should suffice, that should give me enough to give a sufficient review of it.

 

[WhatSayYou89]

Most of the data would suggest avoiding EOD propionate as monotherapy. It should be daily or not at all. The apparent half-life is around 0.8 days, which means that even daily use causes unnaturally large variations in serum testosterone.

There's no evidence that in normal use different esters yield significantly different average amounts of estradiol when doses are normalized for testosterone content. However, peak and trough hormone levels can be markedly more pronounced with shorter esters.

I've come to really like a daily injection of an enanthate/propionate blend, which is designed to mimic a physiological variation in serum testosterone of about +/-24% about the mean.

Regardless, EOD cypionate or enanthate is a perfectly reasonable protocol, providing very stable hormone levels for most.

Alright, so I was all set to throw in the towel with TRT then I remembered this post. Then I started researching with the daily injections of the long/short Esther blends.

What do I have to lose?

So I’ve asked my doc if I can give it one more chance with this. (Still waiting on their reply but I figure they will)

I’m hoping by injecting it every morning the prop will start to come down before I go to bed which should help me sleep.

In all honesty it seems like the perfect protocol to mimic a natural approach to testosterone.

The only problem I’m thinking would be is if they prop doesn’t start coming down until the next morning. Figure I would be in the same boat with my sleep problems then.

 

[Cataceous]

My measurements show a rather quick peak in serum testosterone with propionate, around two to three hours post-injection. The exponential decay after that means levels likely will be down significantly by evening. Levels continue to decline overnight, which is in contrast to a normal diurnal rhythm, in which levels rise overnight until the morning peak. But an early morning injection lets one catch up fairly soon and have normal looking levels throughout the day.

As I mentioned, for me at least, daily propionate by itself causes too much variation in levels. Mixing with the right amount of enanthate allows for fine tuning to the desired variability in serum testosterone.

 

[WhatSayYou89]

My measurements show a rather quick peak in serum testosterone with propionate, around two to three hours post-injection. The exponential decay after that means levels likely will be down significantly by evening. Levels continue to decline overnight, which is in contrast to a normal diurnal rhythm, in which levels rise overnight until the morning peak. But an early morning injection lets one catch up fairly soon and have normal looking levels throughout the day.

As I mentioned, for me at least, daily propionate by itself causes too much variation in levels. Mixing with the right amount of enanthate allows for fine tuning to the desired variability in serum testosterone.

I’ve got about 2-3 months worth of cypionate left so I doubt I’ll be able to order the actually blended test. I’ll probably have to manually pull prop and cypionate.

I did try a combo of cypionate with testosterone cream in the morning to try have a similar result as to to replicating the natural rise/fall daily routine of T levels. Didn’t feel much different, probably bc too many variables with cream.

 

[Cataceous]

I’ve got about 2-3 months worth of cypionate left so I doubt I’ll be able to order the actually blended test. I’ll probably have to manually pull prop and cypionate.
...

I haven't seen commercially available blends with anywhere near the needed proportions. The amount of propionate is always too small. For me, a little more than half the testosterone coming from propionate seems about the best. For example, using three parts propionate and four parts cypionate by weight should be about right. I found the improvements to be subtle, but guys with various side effects from higher testosterone may see some of these resolve without loss of benefits if they maintain the same peak testosterone while lowering average levels. The thought is that nature gives us daily variation for a reason, so we should try to imitate it for best results.

While testing initially I would just draw from the two separate vials before injecting. But now with a more established protocol I just create the propionate/enanthate blend in a new sterile vial. There's a chance this changes the pharmacokinetics a bit, but if it did it was too subtle for me to notice.

 

[WhatSayYou89]

I haven't seen commercially available blends with anywhere near the needed proportions. The amount of propionate is always too small. For me, a little more than half the testosterone coming from propionate seems about the best. For example, using three parts propionate and four parts cypionate by weight should be about right. I found the improvements to be subtle, but guys with various side effects from higher testosterone may see some of these resolve without loss of benefits if they maintain the same peak testosterone while lowering average levels. The thought is that nature gives us daily variation for a reason, so we should try to imitate it for best results.

While testing initially I would just draw from the two separate vials before injecting. But now with a more established protocol I just create the propionate/enanthate blend in a new sterile vial. There's a chance this changes the pharmacokinetics a bit, but if it did it was too subtle for me to notice.

Crap, didn’t even think about variation amounts of each one. Since I already have test cypionate I’m assuming I’ll just get propionate added separately. At least for now.

 

[sh1973]

It is different from Natesto which is a spray and this is a gel (to me it looks like a white cream, but they say gel).

it is around $60 for a pen through Defy. I love the stuff. You can take it 15 minutes before workouts or sex and you get a huge boost. Not for primary treatment because you would have to use it several times a day like you would with Natesto, but this can be prescribed PRN.

Natesto is a gel and a very thick one at that. I’ve tried it and it’s like putting Vaseline in your nose lol.