New Study:TRT Causes Heart Problems?

[Scott Myslinski]

Nelson, apologies in advance if this isn't the correct place to post this, please let me know if I should post it somewhere else.

Have you seen this new study and any thoughts on it? High testosterone levels bad for the heart, study says

 

[Sean Mosher]

Didn't find any data in the article on what is considered high........just that they found some gene mutation.
Even they concluded that their results were inconclusive.
Bunk junk.

 

[xqfq]

Here is the study as published:

Association of genetically predicted testosterone with thromboembolism, heart failure, and myocardial infarction: mendelian randomisation study in UK Biobank

Responses can be read here:

Association of genetically predicted testosterone with thromboembolism, heart failure, and myocardial infarction: mendelian randomisation study in UK Biobank

Please note that the study itself doesn't say or tell us that "High testosterone levels [are] bad for the heart."

What they did was look at a set of people who had a particular gene that makes it more likely for them to have higher testosterone. Then they took those people and tried to enlist them in their study. If they enlisted, then they ran testosterone blood tests on those people.

Then they looked at the rates of thromboembolism, heart failure, and myocardial infarction in that group versus the rest of the population in the database. They found higher rates of thromboembolism and heart failure, but not higher rates of myocardial infarction.

They *didn't* grab a set of N people out of the database, test their testosterone levels, and then find a correlation between higher testosterone levels and these cardiac events. What they did was *select* the group using this gene that correlates with high testosterone.

So the selection based on the gene may have been a confounding factor. The study responses, which I linked above, are quite good. Here's one:

Plausible genetic instruments
The authors address an important research topic in their mendelian randomisation study investigating the association of genetically predicted testosterone levels with risk of thromboembolism, heart failure and myocardial infarction. I congratulate them in their comprehensive research article and significant contribution to the field.

It is clear from the article that the authors fully appreciate the importance of considering valid genetic instruments in such study. They make effort in their methods to ensure that any such genetic variants 'should be unrelated to factors potentially confounding any association with the outcomes, including baseline age, body mass index, socioeconomic status (Townsend index and educational level), and lifestyle factors (smoking and drinking) at Bonferroni corrected significance.' Furthermore, appropriate caution is offered in the discussion, with explanation that 'variants predicting testosterone from the SHBG gene region are open to the pleiotropic effects of sex hormone binding globulin.' Credit is also offered by the authors to 'the estimates from JMJD1C variants', which 'could be least biased by sex hormone binding globulin because JMJD1C is probably relevant to male fertility'.

I was fascinated to find after a quick search on Wikipedia (JMJD1C - Wikipedia) that the JMJD1C protein is a candidate histone demethylase and possibly a coactivator for transcription factors, suggestive of widespread physiological effects beyond testosterone. Further investigating the corresponding gene on the PhenoScanner curated database of results from genome-wide association studies (PhenoScanner) predominantly highlights associations with platelet traits, rather than testosterone.

It may rather be that variants related to the JMJD1C gene are more likely to be exerting pleiotropic effects (unrelated to testosterone) on risk of risk of thromboembolism, heart failure and myocardial infarction. Consequent bias in the mendelian randomisation estimates might have major implications for the results and indeed the conclusions drawn in this study.

 

[pmgamer18]

After being on TRT for 35 yrs. and a mod at 3 forms I lost count on how many times I have seen this crap. Low T is bad for your heart.

Phil aka pmgamer

 

[luidox33]

After being on TRT for 35 yrs. and a mod at 3 forms I lost count on how many times I have seen this crap. Low T is bad for your heart.

Phil aka pmgamer

Inspired!

Thank you.

 

[MikeXL]

Morgentaler already debunked this. Jay Campbell went bat shit on this last night on one of his every shrinking podcasts (now Keith Nichols has left him). Anyway Jay is claiming that the government and Big Pharma conspiring to take testosterone away from us

 

[pmgamer18]

HI Mike,





They have been trying to take Testosterone off the market for as long as I can remember over 35 yrs. It's not going to happen.

pmgamer

 

[Joey786]

Dr Nichols no longer works with jay?

 

[JohnTaylorHK]

Have you seen this new study and any thoughts on it? High testosterone levels bad for the heart, study says

There may be other concerns with long-term use of ANY growth agonists, read Kris Verburgh's The Longevity Code for a better understanding. PP26 et seq:

"Sex hormones show the link between sex and aging as well. Lab animals that receive testosterone die more quickly. The opposite is also true. There is an efficient way to reduce the amount of sex hormones in the body: castration."

Let me know if you decide to try it. Lolz. Namaste.

 

[Cataceous]

There may be other concerns with long-term use of ANY growth agonists, read Kris Verburgh's The Longevity Code for a better understanding. PP26 et seq:

"Sex hormones show the link between sex and aging as well. Lab animals that receive testosterone die more quickly. The opposite is also true. There is an efficient way to reduce the amount of sex hormones in the body: castration."

Let me know if you decide to try it. Lolz. Namaste.

This doesn't really work in humans unless you do it before puberty. Guys done later seem to do worse.

A potential issue with exogenous testosterone is that it can raise IGF-1, which in turn may reduce longevity.

 

[JohnTaylorHK]

This doesn't really work in humans unless you do it before puberty. Guys done later seem to do worse.

A potential issue with exogenous testosterone is that it can raise IGF-1, which in turn may reduce longevity.

"Guys done later seem to do worse."
Yes, castration also does sound a bit extreme!

However, I think it's worth noting the potential long-term aging effects for anyone trying exogenous growth agents/agonists, especially the young, and more importantly those who don't need them.

 

[luidox33]

There may be other concerns with long-term use of ANY growth agonists, read Kris Verburgh's The Longevity Code for a better understanding. PP26 et seq:

"Sex hormones show the link between sex and aging as well. Lab animals that receive testosterone die more quickly. The opposite is also true. There is an efficient way to reduce the amount of sex hormones in the body: castration."

Let me know if you decide to try it. Lolz. Namaste.

Mmm no im pretty sure TRT extends life.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

They failed to say the percent of men with that gene mutation. Glueck found that 2 percent of men may have genetic predisposition to clotting although the never specified their age and comorbidities.
Also, no mention of how many of these men had good hematocrit management.

I dream of the day when researchers control for important variables like hematocrit.

Full paper: Association of genetically predicted testosterone with thromboembolism, heart failure, and myocardial infarction: mendelian randomisation study in UK Biobank

 

[JohnTaylorHK]

Mmm no im pretty sure TRT extends life.

Based on what reading/research? References? Please don't gainsay as opinions are like butts, everyone has one ...

 

[luidox33]

Based on what reading/research? References? Please don't gainsay as opinions are like butts, everyone has one ...

Common sense.

Cardioprotective
Prostate protective
Cancer protective

TRT with healthy life style EXTENDS life. No not for the fat boy with no life style changes.

TRT + lean body + LOW fat content + active daily

Is that hard???

 

[lemonflavor]

TRT with healthy life style EXTENDS life. No not for the fat boy with no life style changes.

You added 'with healthy lifestyle' this time. That's now two major variables.

 

[luidox33]

You added 'with healthy lifestyle' this time. That's now two major variables.

Not really. With any healthy supplement thats a given.

 

[Mountain Man]

I continue to cherry pick which podcasts of his I listen to. Many are excellent if you sort through them. He is very insecure about a lot of things, but nobody has more information on TRT available at one place than he does with his two books on TRT. Fast forward through his self serving rants about how high conscious he is and the fawning over routine he does with the guests and you got some real gems and decent info. It’s up to you to decide what works for you.

 

[luidox33]

I continue to cherry pick which podcasts of his I listen to. Many are excellent if you sort through them. He is very insecure about a lot of things, but nobody has more information on TRT available at one place than he does with his two books on TRT. Fast forward through his self serving rants about how high conscious he is and the fawning over routine he does with the guests and you got some real gems and decent info. It’s up to you to decide what works for you.

Oh i ignore the god stuff. Everyone believes different things. My beliefs are my own. He is a TRT inspiration for me. He and Nelson. 20+ successfull years on TRT.

I do like when the round tables disagree with each other. Diverse opinions are what its about and in the spirit of TRT. Everyone seems to respond differently.

 

[wsj357]

I love his videos. They are super helpful. Yyeah hes irate at times. Alot of it is dumb people saying dumb crap. Im sure he hears alot. Hes very intense now. I wonder if thats the new scrotal method?? Maybe higher DHT makn him more wired?

God knows. Plenty of men are fine with trt and optimal levels. If you are a calm thoughtful man before trt, it will only amplify post trt. If you we’re an irate asshole before trt it will only amplify it. You do have estrogen and other sides they play a role but we all know it can be managed if the mental game is strong. I have had moments where I couldn’t stand a conversation. I didn’t say shut up ... shit the fffff up.. I just say ok I’ll BRB. Go to bathroom wash face and breathe.....