Nandrolone Dosage - How much T?

[S1W]

I’m not as familiar with the science as some on this site, so forgive me if I don’t know the correct terms for what Im trying to describe.

Ive heard/read something along the lines of “nandrolone has a greater binding affinity...this in turn leaves more T unbound and results in higher FT...this can also cause higher E2 because now a lot more of that unbound T will convert to E2...”

So in light of that theory, I guess I’m curious why we so often hear that T:ND dose should be at least 1:1, with some even saying it should be at least 1.5:1. Because it almost seems like it should be the other way around, with T dose lower than ND...at least based on the theory above.

Could someone please educate me on this?

 

[Cataceous]

Would like @Gman86 to comment since he's researched nandrolone a lot.

 

[Gman86]

Oh man, Cataceous is giving me too much credit lol. I’ll try my best though. And honestly maybe we can brainstorm and figure this out together.

So when you say binding affinity, I think you have to be specific. Nandrolone has different binding affinities depending on what you’re referring to. Androgen receptor, SHBG, prostate, skeletal muscle, etc. I’m not sure of it’s binding affinity to the androgen receptor. I do know that it has a high binding affinity to skeletal muscle, vs test, which means mg for mg nandrolone will tend to help build more muscle. Nandrolone has a very low binding affinity to SHBG. So very little of it is bound, and most of the nandrolone you use is left free to work in the body.

Does this all sound about right so far Cataceous? I tried looking up studies on the binding affinity of nandrolone compared to testosterone, and most of them seem to repeat similar information as the study I’ll link below. I’d like to brainstorm and understand this stuff better myself. It honestly can get pretty complicated.

Comparison of the Receptor Binding Properties of Nandrolone and Testosterone Under in Vitro and in Vivo Conditions - PubMed

 

[Gman86]

@S1W Just curious. Why do you theorize that using nandrolone as a base, with low dose T might be preferential? I didn’t really understand how u came to that conclusion. I don’t disagree. Far from it. My new protocol starting next week is nandrolone as my base, with low dose T and HCG to boost E2 up. Was just wondering if you could clarify why you think nandrolone as a base might be a smart option in regards to HRT. Thanks

 

[Cataceous]

This review article notes that:

Nandrolone binds to androgen receptors with a greater binding affinity than testosterone and with an increased anabolic, or myotrophic, activity rate (versus androgenic activity) (15). For example and to assist in comparison, the myotrophic:androgenic ratio can be used to compare testosterone (~1:1) to nandrolone (~11:1) (15) with regards to the ability to stimulate muscle growth compared to virilization.​

​

Confirming the part about SHBG, Wikipedia cites a relative binding affinity for nandrolone that is 1/19 that of testosterone and 1/100 that of DHT.

What's not obvious to me is whether nandrolone can significantly affect free testosterone levels. Nandrolone does displace some testosterone from androgen receptors, but how do these numbers compare to the overall amount of free testosterone in circulation?

 

[S1W]

@S1W Just curious. Why do you theorize that using nandrolone as a base, with low dose T might be preferential? I didn’t really understand how u came to that conclusion. I don’t disagree. Far from it. My new protocol starting next week is nandrolone as my base, with low dose T and HCG to boost E2 up. Was just wondering if you could clarify why you think nandrolone as a base might be a smart option in regards to HRT. Thanks

Well I wouldn't say that I understand this well enough to really have any strong opinions/theories that I would call my own. Just brainstorming really.

Again this is likely oversimplified and may reflect my lack of understanding - I'm just trying to learn here. But I the way I see it is this:

If ND has a greater binding affinity to androgen receptors than T, and therefore a lot of the exogenous T ends up essentially "locked out", and therefore far more of it converts to E2 than it would in the absence of ND...why inject more proportionately more T when using ND? Wouldn't we want to use "just enough" T to keep our FT values wherever we like them to be (upper 20s to mid 30s for me, for example)?

I recall another forum member noting that when he introduced ND his E2 shot up to 90. And I recall another knowledgeable forum member saying something to the effect of when ND is added to a T protocol, it may not have a large effect on TT but that one should expect FT numbers to increase.

So I guess my thoughts are: if using ND, wouldn't a more sensible approach be to adjust the T dose so that FT is in the patients desired range, rather than relying on ratios like 1.5:1 T to ND which may result in higher FT levels than desired and more conversion to E2?

 

[Vince]

You may have already read this.

All About Nandrolone

 

[Gman86]

Well I wouldn't say that I understand this well enough to really have any strong opinions/theories that I would call my own. Just brainstorming really.

Again this is likely oversimplified and may reflect my lack of understanding - I'm just trying to learn here. But I the way I see it is this:

If ND has a greater binding affinity to androgen receptors than T, and therefore a lot of the exogenous T ends up essentially "locked out", and therefore far more of it converts to E2 than it would in the absence of ND...why inject more proportionately more T when using ND? Wouldn't we want to use "just enough" T to keep our FT values wherever we like them to be (upper 20s to mid 30s for me, for example)?

I recall another forum member noting that when he introduced ND his E2 shot up to 90. And I recall another knowledgeable forum member saying something to the effect of when ND is added to a T protocol, it may not have a large effect on TT but that one should expect FT numbers to increase.

So I guess my thoughts are: if using ND, wouldn't a more sensible approach be to adjust the T dose so that FT is in the patients desired range, rather than relying on ratios like 1.5:1 T to ND which may result in higher FT levels than desired and more conversion to E2?

So nandrolone will not increase total T. Nandrolone is a separate molecule than testosterone. So if you’re on 100mg of T, and your total is 1000, if you add in 50mg of deca, your total T should theoretically remain the same. But the deca should displace some of the exogenous T from the androgen receptor, thus improving your free T. I think this is how it works at least.

So from what I’ve heard, mixing too much T, with too much deca, can result in a lot of side effects. So there’s two ways I guess you can implement nandrolone. You can use nandrolone as a base, and add in other compounds to raise E2 to an acceptable level. Or, you can use testosterone as your base, and lower your T dose, and add in some deca to replace the lost androgens from lowering your T dose. Lowering your T dose will lower DHT, E2 and prolactin. Adding nandrolone will replace the androgens, but add very little E2, very little prolactin, and add DHN, not DHT. DHN is basically a weaker form of DHT. So the net result will be that your androgens will still be as high as they were before, if not higher, which will maintain the usual subjective benefits of T that we’re all familiar with, but you should have a decreased level of E2, decreased prolactin level, and lower DHT level.

The member that had his E2 shoot up to 90 probably didn’t lower his test dose when adding in the nandrolone.

 

[Gman86]

I have heard from Taeian clark, a well known advocate for nandrolone, that nandrolone increases aromatization, and increases prolactin receptor sensitivity. So theoretically adding in nandrolone might increase E2. But how much is the question. By dropping the T dose, your E2 will drop. Even if the nandrolone increases aromatization, you may still be left with a net drop in E2.

Another issue that men can run into when using too much T, along with nandrolone, is issues with prolactin. At least from what I understand. Nandrolone by itself produces very little prolactin. Testosterone tends to produce a moderate amount of prolactin, in most men. So if it is true that nandrolone sensitizes prolactin receptors, using too much testosterone can cause issues, due to the combination of T producing quite a bit of prolactin, and nandrolone sensitizing prolactin receptors, making all that prolactin more powerful than usual.

 

[JimGainz]

The member that had his E2 shoot up to 90 probably didn’t lower his test dose when adding in the nandrolone.[/QUOTE]

I’m pretty sure I was the member referenced - as I recently posted my experience with Deca and TRT with a 90 E2 and you are correct - I did not lower my dose. I was doing 110mg Test split in 2 shots with 40 mg Deca added in as well. I just started a new Deca cycle for joint issues and have since lowered my Test to 100 mg split in EOD injections with 15 mg Deca added.

 

[Gman86]

The member that had his E2 shoot up to 90 probably didn’t lower his test dose when adding in the nandrolone.

I’m pretty sure I was the member referenced - as I recently posted my experience with Deca and TRT with a 90 E2 and you are correct - I did not lower my dose. I was doing 110mg Test split in 2 shots with 40 mg Deca added in as well. I just started a new Deca cycle for joint issues and have since lowered my Test to 100 mg split in EOD injections with 15 mg Deca added.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for replying. So you’re currently only using 15mg of deca per week total?

 

[JimGainz]

I’m pretty sure I was the member referenced - as I recently posted my experience with Deca and TRT with a 90 E2 and you are correct - I did not lower my dose. I was doing 110mg Test split in 2 shots with 40 mg Deca added in as well. I just started a new Deca cycle for joint issues and have since lowered my Test to 100 mg split in EOD injections with 15 mg Deca added.

Thanks for replying. So you’re currently only using 15mg of deca per week total?[/QUOTE]

No 15mg or so each injection. I make sure I target 60 mg Deca per week.

 

[Gman86]

Thanks for replying. So you’re currently only using 15mg of deca per week total?

No 15mg or so each injection. I make sure I target 60 mg Deca per week.[/QUOTE]

So you’re doing 100mg of test, and 60mg of deca?

How are you currently feeling?

 

[JimGainz]

No 15mg or so each injection. I make sure I target 60 mg Deca per week.

So you’re doing 100mg of test, and 60mg of deca?

How are you currently feeling?[/QUOTE]
Started about a month ago Feeling very good. No issues at all. Not taking an AI either.

 

[Gman86]

So you’re doing 100mg of test, and 60mg of deca?

How are you currently feeling?

Started about a month ago Feeling very good. No issues at all. Not taking an AI either.[/QUOTE]

How do you feel compared to previous TRT protocol without deca?

 

[JimGainz]

Started about a month ago Feeling very good. No issues at all. Not taking an AI either.

How do you feel compared to previous TRT protocol without deca?[/QUOTE]
Notable impacts were:
- joints feel great
- better recovery
- some slight muscle gains
- slightly higher aggression
- overall lower inflammation and pain

 

[Sly]

I’m starting Deca tomorrow 60mg a week, divided into 2 30mg doses. Was doing 200mg test once per week, now starting 40mg test EOD and 500mg HCG twice per week. Haven’t decided whether I’m going back on an ai yet. I’m praying the Deca gives me some relief from my arthritis.

 

[Gman86]

How do you feel compared to previous TRT protocol without deca?

Notable impacts were:
- joints feel great
- better recovery
- some slight muscle gains
- slightly higher aggression
- overall lower inflammation and pain[/QUOTE]

No differences mood wise? No differences with libido or sexual function?

 

[SilverSurfer]

I just finished a run with Deca to improve joints for 13 weeks. I took blood at start, mid point, and 2 weeks after. Only thing I noticed in change was hemocrit went up 2 points and total T went up given the added nandrolone. I took 250 mg per week while on 150 mg per week T. Had no issues.

positives - joints feel much better and still feel better (been off for 3 weeks so Deca still in my system)

gained 19 lbs of lean mass and still holding on to it

 

[JimGainz]

I just finished a run with Deca to improve joints for 13 weeks. I took blood at start, mid point, and 2 weeks after. Only thing I noticed in change was hemocrit went up 2 points and total T went up given the added nandrolone. I took 250 mg per week while on 150 mg per week T. Had no issues.

positives - joints feel much better and still feel better (been off for 3 weeks so Deca still in my system)

gained 19 lbs of lean mass and still holding on to it

That’s a nice run. Did you use any AI with that? That’s how we used to run it in the 80s: deca much higher than test dose, but now they say to keep it 1:1 or with test higher to avoid deca sides.