How to tell if Nandrolone is working?

[masfield]

On Sept 9, I started a Defy-prescribed protocol consisting of Nandrolone, testosterone, sermorelin and a few other things to balance out the above, all this for a muscle wasting disease. So, it's been almost two months. I've been exercising 3x a week and eating my basic lower-carb diet, supplementing it with protein-powder shakes. If I am going to see results in terms of muscle, is it too soon to expect it? And, what baseline stats should i take (which I should have taken in Sept) to measure progress against?

Right now, I'm not sure if I'm seeing many if any benefits. According to my calipers and an online tool, my bodyfat is around 20%, which I think it's been for a long time, though I'm just guessing, really.

Do my legs feel stronger? Maybe a little but if they are it's so slight that I could just as easily pass it off as wishful thinking. That said, I do think my biceps have a little more bulge than usual. But, I dunno -- nothing is screaming at me saying wow this Nandrolone stuff is the answer to all my prayers. Not that I'd been expecting that but, hey, a little something noticeable would be nice, right? Or is it still too early?

I've been doing all my injects subq. Maybe i should try IM?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Tell us about your dose of each, exercise and diet program. It takes 8-12 weeks to start seeing body composition changes.

 

[masfield]

so maybe it's a little early to start seeing changes. okay, whew, there's still hope. one thing is, i have put on weight. started at 163, high was 173, now it's at 169. water weight, i assume.

here's what i'm taking:
Testosterone: 60mg or .3ml twice weekly Nandrolone 60mg or .3ml twice weekly
HCG 300IU or 1/2ml twice weekly
Anastrozole .25mg twice weekly
Sermorelin 1/2ml every night
DHEA 1 capsule daily

diet could probably be way improved.
breakfast: 1/2 avocado, 1 egg, 1-scoop protein powder in h20.
lots of coffee!!!!
lunch: a mish mash. sometimes low sugar PB&J on low-carb bread. or cold-cuts on low-carb bread. or an apple and cheese. or crackers and cheese. or a can of chicken noodle soup.
dinner: 1/3 lb arugula, a few craisins, a few walnuts, a bit of blue cheese. and 1/3 to 1/2 lb chicken or steak.
i go to bed, then wake up starving and shovel low-carb bread and american cheese into my mouth.
okay, so maybe this needs a lot of improvement.

exercise. body weight with resistance bands. 3 x week.
counter pushups -- 3 x 12 - 15. working towards regular floor pushups.
bicep curls with resistance band.
overhead downward press w bands: 1 x 20
front chest pull w bands: 1 x 13
back press w bands -- 1 x 20
(need to up the resistance for overhead and back)
body-weight squats, following some progression I found online: 16, 22, 17, 17 and then all you can, which today was 35 = 107 squats total today.
1 x 60 seconds, plank on elbows.

what do you think?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Your diet needs help. Why are you using resistance bands? Why not a real gym? Your program is a good one, so don't waste your time doing it the wrong way.

Here is some food info:


ExcelMale.com Meal Plan


Great high protein recipes videos


Nelson's Top High Protein Fast Snacks


Got a good protein shake recipe to share?


Clean nutrition for health, muscle gain and fat loss.

Nelson's work out (dorky) videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knHiTrGULG8&list=PL9soaSMOrIC-f-V0gGquysE1P26c_auxu

 

[masfield]

Thanks for the diet info, nelson. I'm really going to work on it.

As to why bands -- well, for one thing, convenience. for another, from everything i've read, and it's been a lot, bands are not quite but almost as good for hypertrophy as weights. the program above is based on a thread i started at the world's most nutty and popular resistance bands forum:
http://theofficebodybuildingworkout28918.yuku.com/forums/1/All-Things-Zen/All-Things-Zen

they're into bodyweight, too, of course. but a lot of it is band work and, rightly or wrongly, i'm convinced they'll lead to results if anything can.
(also, i dislike gyms, the whole deal, the atmosphere, the noise, the waits for weights, some of the buff grunting doods,, etc. and the expense.)

 

[Re-Ride]

If your gut is sensitive and you are not absorbing as well as others you'll need to experiment. Low car has got to go. I like toasted oat bran for an instant tasty easy to prepare source of carbs, fiber. It's satisfying and soothing. Trader Joes sells pre-toasted. Please post all your supplements . You should be taking L glutanine 3-10 g /day.

craisens are crap . cheese-food, cold cuts. crackers, canned soup? Sounds like you are on a budget . You can still do better than that. My store marks down the organic yogurt a week before it gets close to last day of sale. I dump a scoop of flavored or unflavored Impact Whey which I got for $5/lb on sale in to the yogurt. If you use a protein powder use a clean one.

 

[masfield]

in general, carbs and i don't agree. but for my two slices of (low carb) bread a day and some crackers, i steer clear. no rice, no potatoes, no pasta, no sugar to speak of, no yogurt, no anything which, in itself, i know makes me tired and sluggish, which in my case carbs do.
yeah, i know craisins are hi-carb crab but i eat maybe 12 of them a day, hardly enuf for me to worry about. and i do love them.
also: no sodas, no beer, no vodka, sigh.. i've crossed a lot of crap off the list, but the real issue is i'm probably not getting as many calories as i need, nor as much protein. probably ought to get an app and see for sure. and spend some time with nelson's links.
thanks for weighing in!

 

[Re-Ride]

Linter, the carbs you mentioned are all processed and or include excessive starch. It's the insulin spike they cause that makes you tired.

["but the real issue is i'm probably not getting as many calories as i need, nor as much protein. probably ought to get an app and see for sure..."]

You don't need an app, just basic understanding of how to properly feed your body. Complex carbs do not spike insulin and should be your primary source of calories. That's key for everyone to understand. Complex carbs consumed with fiber are slow releasing and won't spike insulin.

To grow muscle you need protein , carbs , vitamins. water. minerals. Certain things like Lysine switch on muscle building protein synthesis. Preservation of the muscle you do build is just as important. This requires an understanding of basic anti-catabolic techniques. Otherwise any muscle you build will be broken down by the body and consumed for energy. You described waking up hungry enough to eat roadkill. That's what's happening there for sure.

Take at least 20g of protein along with the appropriate very low cost generic amino powder just before bedtime. Casein digests more slowly than whey. Many will take L-glutamine and other aminos along with it at bedtime. Review the evidence supporting use of each amino or supplement prior to purchasing.

I personally enjoy quality sardines. Consider this though:
Sardines, 20g per can, $2/can. 40 cans 800g protein $80
MyProtein Impact whey (rated #2 by Labdoor) 800g protein for $12 (sale).
I use them both to get to my target of 0.75 to 1 g protein per pound of body weight spread throughout the day.

Excellent short videos are out there that explain muscle growth and preservation. Most of the vendors of aminos and sports supplements have concise video presentations on the basics which is where everyone should start. Not that I'm recommending costly proprietary formulations, I don't, they are unnecessary.

I've recently picked up a better understanding of amino selection dosing and timing from short presentations on MyProtein and Bodybuilding.com. All of Nelson's links are of course excellent with many geared to your specific need.

This time of year try slow digesting. yellow, red, purple flesh sweet potato, yams and pumpkin as carb sources- try these in moderation. Pure organic canned pumpkin is low cost and recommended.

FIBER: Fiber slows digestion. It occurs naturally in whole unprocessed food. Natural fiber is best but powdered oat bran and psyllium are low cost and convenient. Timing is important if you use powdered fiber because it can bind to nutrients. Again I highly recommend lightly pan toasted oat bran porridge (the trick is to stir it in slowly to boiling water so it doesn't lump). It has fiber and a whole lot more.

You need to include a little grass fed beef , free range organic chicken, small fish harvested from relatively unpolluted fisheries like north pacific sardines, frozen sardines, cod, Alaskan pink salmon (red is tastier, more costly and slightly less healthy) and and plenty of organic free range ( not cage free ) eggs. Probiotics, fermented foods and dark leafy green vegetable are important. Broth, especially bone broth is highly fortifying. Make your own. IMO, a modern pressure cooker is indispensable. I use a Fagor on a portable induction hobb which has both power and timer control which makes it set and forget.

From what you've said I suspect that supplementation with metabolic aids, especially: ALCAR in pure powder form, antioxidants like, L Lipoc, N-acetyl Cysteine and liver health like Silymarin might be very beneficial to you.

Check Nelsons and Jason's lists. One of the best sites I've found for the basics on sound nutritional and supplement advice is Canada's CATIE. Although geared for those with chronic health challenges the advice offered is sound for most everyone: Acetyl L carnitine, L-Lipoic Acid, L glutamine, NAC, Magnesium are highly recommended. Others supps such as L theanine and BCAA if used correctly are great but less essential.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Re-Ride

Man, that was a great post! Thanks

 

[Re-Ride]

Most of us suffer from nutritional information overload. The distraction prevents us from focusing on the basics which are both easy and very important like throwing away the canned condensed noodle soup with it's empty calories,starchy white flower noodles and chemicals and replacing it with Bone Broth.

Linter, the cravings will stop once you discard processed syn-food. Avoid the aisles in the grocery store. If you must buy packaged "food" then read the labels. I'd avoid anything with corn wheat chemicals. In theory a small amount of bread made exclusively from whole sprouted grains and seeds is o.k. The stuff factories put in syn-food to replace carbs and sugar is often just as unhealthy.

Milk and cheese products: You mentioned that you thought yogurt made you tired. Quality organic milk products generally don't have that effect. You might be lactose intolerant or sensitive to the additives. It is possible that you are sensitive to cow's milk proteins.

All of Green Valley Organics products are lactose-free. I suggest trying their kefir first or another organic lactose-free kefir made from grass fed milk. If you still have a problem then avoid all cow's milk products. Often we can consume a fermented product but not it's non-fermented counterpart.

Wean yourself off the processed stuff gradually by replacing each thing you like with a healthy version giving you body time to adjust. Things that are generally considered healthy like lentils may not a agree with you especially if you eat too much. At this point you begin to determine what is inflammatory for you personally and what isn't. If you haven't been eating legumes for example then you need to introduce them slowly.

 

[ERO]

Linter-

Here is an easy tool to properly calculate your macros. or in plain English, how much protein, carbs and fats you need based upon your body composition.

https://legionathletics.com/calculate-macros-5-simple-steps/

I am not trying to sell you on anything, but the tool is very helpful.

 

[masfield]

ERO: thanks for the link. According to that, I'm wwwayyyy under carbing myself.

reride_ wow, double wow. so much there to consider and investigate. i'm going to print out your posts and highlight what i need to do. terrific stuff. thanks.

i know you said no need to count calories but when i change routines, until i get used to the new one, i like to keep track of what i'm doing and i found an iphone app that'll let me do just that.
according to the calculator posted by eros, as a 170 lb guy, i need about 2250 calories a day, from 170 gr protein, 34 gr fat and 300 gr carbs. that seem about right to you? carb needs seem like a total blast off from what (i think) i'm currently getting.

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

Great advice above and great post Re-ride.

 

[masfield]

i think i'll start a new thread in the nutrition forum but i'll say here that i got some oat bran and had it for breakfast, 1/4 dry, 1 cup as prepared. delicious and warm. but the second i was done, i felt like i had a lead weight in my belly, and then I got super tired, and then I went and took a 40 min nap.
this is more or less the reaction to carbs i've always had. maybe it was a one-off experience, so i will try oat bran again, because it felt very comforting going down, with a little salt and pepper.
i bought a sweet potato yesterday so i'll try that at dinner time and see what happens with it.
meanwhile, i ate more than i usually do yesterday and put my meals into a calculator and, if it's to be believed, i must be starving myself.
wound up with
124 carbs (goal: 170), 111 carbs (280) and 92 fat (50, so i went way over), for a total of 1500 calories, where 2250 was the minimum needed. so, i'm shy about 750 calories.
i would never have suspected this, especially since my weight has always been more or less stable. shouldn't i be losing weight if i'm that far underfeeding myself?
and yesterday was an above average eating day for me.
cripes, what a pickle.
for the record, i'm 6', weigh 170 and am very very thin boned. about 20% bodyfat, if not more, according to the calculators.

 

[madman]

http://www.precisionnutrition.com/low-carb-dietCould be the soluble fiber from the oat bran that is making you feel sluggish, I have no issues with insoluble fiber but any time I eat carbs that contain soluble fiber I feel gassy/bloated and lethargic. Read my response to Vinces post where do the carbs go? I understand your body fat levels are up there and you may feel that following a low carb diet will help you lose weight but you will see better results in muscular gains by increasing your complex carbs especially that you are on trt/nandrolone as any use of testosterone/aas will give you the advantage of storing even more glycogen in the muscle than some one who trains naturally/not to mention the increase in protein synthesis. Through trial and error you have to find your sweet spot for carbs. Your calories are also very low and can cause your metabolism to slow down as long term low carb diets eventually lead to a lower thyroid hormone output.

 

[masfield]

madman: incredibly helpful post and link. seems to me i've been doing things way wrong for a long time and especially in the short run as regards nandrolone/test/etc. i don't know the diff between insol and sol carbs, so i'll have to look more into that.
ate oat bran for breakfast again this morning and again all it made me want to do is nap.
onward!

 

[madman]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...s-whats-best-for-your-bowels/article29586587/