My daily Testosterone Propionate diary

[Vince Carter]

As I say and this is one of the constants that Cataceous can't get a grasp on is the SHBG negates the half-life. That's a demonstrable fact that he constantly ignores.

 

[Vince Carter]

That's a non sequitur. If you measure the rate that serum testosterone is dropping then you're measuring the apparent half-life. Given the time constants involved, you can't "piss it out" faster than you absorb it. The rate of absorption controls the process; it sets the steady state free testosterone level, which along with SHBG determines where total testosterone ends up.

NO

 

[Cataceous]

You don’t think there’s a possibility of low SHBG guys reaching the same total T as a high SHBG that’s on the same dose, but the low SHBG’s levels just fall faster and say after 3 days has a lower Total T level than the high SHBG guy?

Given individual variation, you could probably find examples meeting these criteria, but statistically speaking they would be in the minority, because when all else is equal, a low-SHBG guy has less total testosterone. Without contrary evidence you have to decouple SHBG from half-life/testosterone absorption; they are probably almost completely independent.

 

[Cataceous]

NO

How enlightening.

 

[sh1973]

Shbg does in fact affect the half life of the medication in circulation that’s released from the depot but absolutely does not affect the release from the depot.

 

[Krocco]

Once again: there's no evidence for this and no plausible mechanism for SHBG to set the serum half-life, which is implied by the terms "faster" and "longer". Instead, think "larger" and "smaller". The high SHBG guy has higher total testosterone for the same dose, while the low SHBG guy has lower total testosterone. Repeating an earlier illustration: take a guy with high SHBG on TRT, with peak serum testosterone of 1,000 ng/dL and trough of 500. Suddenly, drop his SHBG and change nothing else. What happens? Answer: both peak and trough levels drop in proportion, e.g. to 500 and 250 respectively. Critically, free testosterone remains the same, because it's controlled by the TRT dose, which doesn't change.

I don't care what number my level is at 10pm, if I injected 6am, when waking up. What I care is that there is no libido left and fealing brainfog and numbness(mentally). With same amount of mg:s divided twice a day shots, at 10pm I feal great and totally ready for little wrestle with the mrs before cooling down to sleep.. all power seems to fade too early in the late afternoon when hitting whole dosage at once.

 

[camygod]

I don't care what number my level is at 10pm, if I injected 6am, when waking up. What I care is that there is no libido left and fealing brainfog and numbness(mentally). With same amount of mg:s divided twice a day shots, at 10pm I feal great and totally ready for little wrestle with the mrs before cooling down to sleep.. all power seems to fade too early in the late afternoon when hitting whole dosage at once.

so you inject test prop twice a day now? im or sub q?

 

[Cataceous]

Shbg does in fact affect the half life of the medication in circulation that’s released from the depot but absolutely does not affect the release from the depot.

Yes, but mainly no. If you inject pure testosterone intravenously then the half-life is directly controlled by SHBG, among other things. But: this half life is on the order of a few minutes to an hour, so it has essentially no influence on the half-life of serum testosterone whose source is an injected depot of a testosterone ester.

I can run through the math if anyone is truly interested.

 

[Cataceous]

I don't care what number my level is at 10pm, if I injected 6am, when waking up. What I care is that there is no libido left and fealing brainfog and numbness(mentally). With same amount of mg:s divided twice a day shots, at 10pm I feal great and totally ready for little wrestle with the mrs before cooling down to sleep.. all power seems to fade too early in the late afternoon when hitting whole dosage at once.

Clearly you should follow the protocol that gives you the best subjective response. But without lab work it's only a guess that testosterone has declined significantly during the day, and if it has then there's still no basis for linking it to SHBG.

 

[Tman]

So here's the update:
10 days in and this is just "OK", at best, I don't feel better. It appears that I'm suffering thru a bout of carpal tunnel like symptoms that may be water retention. Nurse and Dr advise me that could be an IGF1 spike. This would coincide with my previous ~45 day experimentation with HGH Secretetagogues/peptides GHRP 2/6 and 1295 w/DAC, I stopped use after waking at night in pain, this exac. I was leaning on water retention before the IGF1 was brought up in discussion as I have some midsection bloat though I have (unintentionally) dropped ~2lbs since the change.

The first few days I was noticeably less tolerable of my GF's...nuanced behaviors...guys you know what I'm talking about.

I don't like shooting .5mL of oil though it is not intolerable at all, and I'm not experiencing any pain on injection that Propionate may be known for.

Prop costs more than Cyp, a 10mL supply costs less than Cyp, yes, but the vial strength @ 50mg/mL means I'm using A LOT more per day for the same mg dose. Notice Cyp I was shooting .14mL/28mg/D, but with Prop I'm shooting .5mL/25mg/D...you go thru 10mL's rather quickly that way so in a months time or whatever its significantly more expensive than Cyp.

So far the verdict: not worth it as it stands with the side effect, and then the cost.

I realize this is two years old, but I added nandralone to my trt with the same result-same hand/forearm numb/tingly/pain---crazy carpel tunnel like symptoms.

 

[Vince]

I realize this is two years old, but I added nandralone to my trt with the same result-same hand/forearm numb/tingly/pain---crazy carpel tunnel like symptoms.

Vince Carter had very low shbg. If my memory serves me right, he tried to get his estrogen and shpg at the same levels. He had many struggles to feel good. After watching the YouTube video that Nelson was on. I remember something I read a few years ago. Men feel the best when their testosterone, is that the same levels it was when they were in their early twenties. The issue is, no one (or very few) have had their testosterone levels checked at that age.

 

[antelopers]

Vince Carter had very low shbg. If my memory serves me right, he tried to get his estrogen and shpg at the same levels. He had many struggles to feel good. After watching the YouTube video that Nelson was on. I remember something I read a few years ago. Men feel the best when their testosterone, is that the same levels it was when they were in their early twenties. The issue is, no one (or very few) have had their testosterone levels checked at that age.

Unless you're like me and had low T in your early 20s

 

[Vince]

Unless you're like me and had low T in your early 20s

What were your levels at in your early twenties?

 

[antelopers]

What were your levels at in your early twenties?

I can't remember the exact numbers, but I think my first lab test was 300 and the second was about 280.

 

[Vince]

I can't remember the exact numbers, but I think my first lab test was 300 and the second was about 280.

So do you feel your best at lower levels? I always feel my best at higher levels, so I assume at age 20 my testosterone levels were high. In a young person with low levels, you would think he should feel better with lower levels.

 

[antelopers]

So do you feel your best at lower levels? I always feel my best at higher levels, so I assume at age 20 my testosterone levels were high. In a young person with low levels, you would think he should feel better with lower levels.

I personally don't feel good low at all. I need to be mid/upper range to feel well. Maybe that's where my natural levels were supposed to be?

 

[Willyt]

Can someone clarify how quickly propionate peaks for daily low dose protocol (10mg per day) via shallow IM? The official answer seems to be 14 hours, but I have read anecdotal accounts of 2-5 hours.

The reason I ask is that I am trying to figure out dosing schedule of morning versus evening.

 

[Cataceous]

Can someone clarify how quickly propionate peaks for daily low dose protocol (10mg per day) via shallow IM? The official answer seems to be 14 hours, but I have read anecdotal accounts of 2-5 hours.

The reason I ask is that I am trying to figure out dosing schedule of morning versus evening.

The main question with that "official" figure is, were there were other measurements before 14 hours post-injection? If not then it's not excluding an earlier peak. My own results are suggestive of a peak, or at least the beginning of a plateau, at 2-4 hours post injection. These aren't definitive either because the measurements in this time frame were not followed by later readings. Instead the conclusion is based on the measurements matching predicted peaks for the dose.

 

[Willyt]

The main question with that "official" figure is, were there were other measurements before 14 hours post-injection? If not then it's not excluding an earlier peak. My own results are suggestive of a peak, or at least the beginning of a plateau, at 2-4 hours post injection. These aren't definitive either because the measurements in this time frame were not followed by later readings. Instead the conclusion is based on the measurements matching predicted peaks for the dose.

Good point about focusing on the earlier peak, especially for purposes of determining time of injection. With the longer esters, injection time does not seem to matter much, but that is not the case with daily prop at least in my limited experience.

For example, I tried moving daily 10mg prop injection from morning to bedtime. Not a good idea. I consistently wake up about 3-4 hours after injection with a surge of energy, which I assume is the initial peak that you reference. I had been hoping that I could time the surge with my usual waking hour, similar to diurnal rhythm - a fool's errand I know!

So far I am liking the sustained energy from prop (something I never experienced from cypionate E3.5), but I may switch at some point to your blended approach with enanthate/prop to blunt the swings. I am definitely dragging in the 2-3 hours before each daily prop-only injection.

 

[Cataceous]

...
For example, I tried moving daily 10mg prop injection from morning to bedtime. Not a good idea. I consistently wake up about 3-4 hours after injection with a surge of energy, which I assume is the initial peak that you reference. I had been hoping that I could time the surge with my usual waking hour, similar to diurnal rhythm - a fool's errand I know!
...

I can't even inject longer testosterone esters in the evening without getting sleep disturbances. The ideal injection time for my ester blend would be an hour or two before waking, but that's not happening. Fortunately injecting soon after waking seems to be ok. If serum testosterone rises as fast as I think then it doesn't take long to catch up with where natural levels would be. Assuming a 6 am injection it might look a little like the red lines below, though of course the peaks and troughs would be rounded.