Appropriate Starting Dose for Propionate?

[OxS2]

Hey all. I read this forum often for advice. Time to make an account so I can ask my own questions.

I have been on TRT for a while and never really felt that same "boost" from it after the first year. I tried high dose/low dose, frequent/less frequent, HCG/no HCG, AI/no AI. Some things work temporarily but not forever.

I have read that some guys do better on Propionate, and when I played with Empowers Prop/Cyp blend, I felt pretty good for a while. So I talked to my doctor and will be starting Propionate soon.

He usually prescribes extremely aggressive amounts, 50mg EOD for Propionate, but I prefer to take a less aggressive approach without being overly conservative, and would like to use daily injections for the Propionate. He trusts me enough to experiment on my own.

I was debating between 2 different doses: either 12mg or 15mg daily. I have normal SHBG of 36, pretty average estradiol conversion, nothing excessive. Which dose would be a better starting point for me?

Priorities for me are 1) sexual function and libido 2) mood, energy, and sleep and 3) physique improvements and no water retention.

I've looked at the Prop for TRT threads here and guys tend to share their dose and Total T but never their SHBG or E2 levels except one or two posts. Thanks.

 

[M.J]

Some guys tried this here, they can help more but What I know you may want to do daily injection on this instead of EOD, would be interesting to see your progress in this protocol, keeps us updated plz.

 

[OxS2]

Some guys tried this here, they can help more but What I know you may want to do daily injection on this instead of EOD, would be interesting to see your progress in this protocol, keeps us updated plz.

Thanks I will be doing daily for sure. I'm mainly looking as to whether 12mg or 15mg would make more sense as a starting dose. 12mg seems low but I don't want to run into dosing too high or running into estrogen issues either. But 15 doesn't seem high either. Hopefully some others can chime in.

 

[Vince Carter]

Id do 15mg. Look at the product that you do receive, when I had my run with it I could only get it from Hallandale in a 50mg/mL strength vial so when I was using 25mg I had to shoot .5mL of oil, it wasn't pleasant. I had no injection site Prop pain but pushing a half milliliter oil through a 29g is a real chore. I couldn't get it in any higher vial strength, like 200mg/mL you find with Cyp.

 

[OxS2]

Id do 15mg. Look at the product that you do receive, when I had my run with it I could only get it from Hallandale in a 50mg/mL strength vial so when I was using 25mg I had to shoot .5mL of oil, it wasn't pleasant. I had no injection site Prop pain but pushing a half milliliter oil through a 29g is a real chore. I couldn't get it in any higher vial strength, like 200mg/mL you find with Cyp.

Thanks, can I just ask your reason to start at 15 instead of 12? Also it seems like the Propionate will be 100mg/ml.

 

[Vince Carter]

I think 12 is too little, it's unlikely to have your Free T at the lab range in trough (low). Your dose should be adjustable after a set of 6 week labs to target not having your FT too far over the lab range.

 

[Vince Carter]

Remember too that mg/mg Prop is giving your more than Cyp

 

[OxS2]

Remember too that mg/mg Prop is giving your more than Cyp

That's why I was considering more conservative. 16mg seems to work well daily for a couple of guys here for cyp, I thought 15mg prop might be overshooting. But the free T thing makes sense and the peak from the prop shouldn't be too high.

 

[Cataceous]

Your previous lab work should provide the answer to the question. For example, I was on testosterone enanthate, taking 18 mg EOD. This consistently put my total testosterone at 750-800 ng/dL. In switching to daily propionate I just matched the average daily testosterone doses. On enanthate the average was 6.5 mg per day, which then translates to a little under 8 mg per day of testosterone propionate.

So what previous TRT dose/frequency were you using and what was the response? Was testing done at troughs?

 

[OxS2]

Your previous lab work should provide the answer to the question. For example, I was on testosterone enanthate, taking 18 mg EOD. This consistently put my total testosterone at 750-800 ng/dL. In switching to daily propionate I just matched the average daily testosterone doses. On enanthate the average was 6.5 mg per day, which then translates to a little under 8 mg per day of testosterone propionate.

So what previous TRT dose/frequency were you using and what was the response? Was testing done at troughs?

At 40 mg cyp every 3 days, total t was 672 and e2 (non sensitive) was 30. Inaccurate e2 testing unfortunately since I didn't have a great doctor at the time. Probably closer to 20 if I had to guess. Felt no benefit out of TRT, almost some low e2 symptoms actually, but maintained a lean physique.
At 50 mg e3d, total t was 750-800, e2 (sensitive) was 27-30. Felt ok but not great.
At 60 mg e3d, total t was 920, e2 (sensitive) was 42. Felt pretty good, but a few minor high e2 symptoms like water retention and insomnia.
SHBG is always 35-37.

 

[Cataceous]

At 40 mg cyp every 3 days, total t was 672 and e2 (non sensitive) was 30. Inaccurate e2 testing unfortunately since I didn't have a great doctor at the time. Probably closer to 20 if I had to guess. Felt no benefit out of TRT, almost some low e2 symptoms actually, but maintained a lean physique.
At 50 mg e3d, total t was 750-800, e2 (sensitive) was 27-30. Felt ok but not great.
At 60 mg e3d, total t was 920, e2 (sensitive) was 42. Felt pretty good, but a few minor high e2 symptoms like water retention and insomnia.
SHBG is always 35-37.

Equivalent doses for 40, 50 and 60 mg T cypionate E3D are 11, 14 and 17 mg T propionate ED, respectively. It's possible you'll get a little more variation in serum testosterone with propionate, so don't be surprised if trough values are lower—but then peaks values will be higher.

 

[OxS2]

Equivalent doses for 40, 50 and 60 mg T cypionate E3D are 11, 14 and 17 mg T propionate ED, respectively. It's possible you'll get a little more variation in serum testosterone with propionate, so don't be surprised if trough values are lower—but then peaks values will be higher.

Thanks. Is it safe to say 15 might be a good starting dose then based on this info? How much peak vs trough variation is there in daily prop?

 

[Cataceous]

Thanks. Is it safe to say 15 might be a good starting dose then based on this info? How much peak vs trough variation is there in daily prop?

This seems like a decent choice given your feelings about the various cypionate doses. I haven't found good information on the variation in serum testosterone with daily propionate. Extrapolating from single-injection data shows little variation, but anecdotal results from forum members suggest modest variation.

 

[Gman86]

I’ve had labs done 3 times while on prop. Here are the results of all 3.

4-30-19
TEST- 122.5 mg/ week (17.5mg ED of Prop)
(Labs drawn 1.5 days after last injection)
No HCG
No AI
WP Thyroid 1.5 grains in AM, 1 grain mid day.
Total T - 1423 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T - 134.8 (46.0-224.0)
Bio T - 265.5 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 63 (10-50)
E2 Sensitive - 72
E2 NOT Sensitive - 49 (correct E2 value)
E2 Free - 1.02 (0.2-1.5)

7–23-19
TEST- 147mg/ week (42mg EOD of Prop (Labs drawn morning of scheduled injection)
No HCG
No AI
No thyroid meds
Total T - 1002 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T - 134.2 (46.0-224.0)
Bio T - 287.7 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 39 (10-50)
E2 Sensitive - 45
E2 NOT Sensitive - 41
E2 Free - 0.94 (0.2-1.5)


8-28-19
TEST- 154mg/ week (22mg ED of Prop (Labs drawn morning of scheduled injection)
No HCG
No AI
1/4 grain of WP thyroid per day
Total T - 1085 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T - 148.8 (46.0-224.0)
Bio T - 299.6 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 40 (10-50)
E2 Sensitive - 78
E2 NOT Sensitive - 71
E2 Free - 1.81 (0.2-1.5)

 

[OxS2]

I’ve had labs done 3 times while on prop. Here are the results of all 3.

4-30-19
TEST- 122.5 mg/ week (17.5mg ED of Prop)
(Labs drawn 1.5 days after last injection)
No HCG
No AI
WP Thyroid 1.5 grains in AM, 1 grain mid day.
Total T - 1423 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T - 134.8 (46.0-224.0)
Bio T - 265.5 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 63 (10-50)
E2 Sensitive - 72
E2 NOT Sensitive - 49 (correct E2 value)
E2 Free - 1.02 (0.2-1.5)

7–23-19
TEST- 147mg/ week (42mg EOD of Prop (Labs drawn morning of scheduled injection)
No HCG
No AI
No thyroid meds
Total T - 1002 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T - 134.2 (46.0-224.0)
Bio T - 287.7 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 39 (10-50)
E2 Sensitive - 45
E2 NOT Sensitive - 41
E2 Free - 0.94 (0.2-1.5)


8-28-19
TEST- 154mg/ week (22mg ED of Prop (Labs drawn morning of scheduled injection)
No HCG
No AI
1/4 grain of WP thyroid per day
Total T - 1085 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T - 148.8 (46.0-224.0)
Bio T - 299.6 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 40 (10-50)
E2 Sensitive - 78
E2 NOT Sensitive - 71
E2 Free - 1.81 (0.2-1.5)

Big e2 numbers. Curious, why do you think that the non sensitive test is correct?

 

[Gman86]

Big e2 numbers. Curious, why do you think that the non sensitive test is correct?

I’ve been getting all 3 E2 tests done for years and years. When you have as many sets of labs as I do you can review, it becomes extremely easy to tell which value is accurate. Even if a random person studied these 3 sets of labs close enough they would be able to figure out which is the correct value, fairly easily imo. Having my free E2 done is the biggest reason I can easily tell which value is correct. Without getting my free E2 done each time, I would literally have no idea. So for anyone just getting the E2 ultra-sensitive test done, at least with Quest, you really have no clue if it’s accurate or not. But it will at least put you in the right ballpark.

 

[OxS2]

I’ve been getting all 3 E2 tests done for years and years. When you have as many sets of labs as I do you can review, it becomes extremely easy to tell which value is accurate. Even if a random person just looked at these 3 sets of labs they would be able to figure out which is the correct value, fairly easily imo. Having my free E2 done is the biggest reason I can easily tell which value is correct. Without getting my free E2 done each time, I would literally have no idea. So for anyone just getting the E2 ultra-sensitive test done, at least with Quest, you really have no clue if it’s accurate or not. But it will at least put you in the right ballpark.

I used quest one time, and my values were all over the place to the point where there were some obvious lab errors. Nowhere near my consistent LabCorp values.
Your post has me concerned I will have high e2 with 15/day. But I would imagine because your shbg is almost double mine, it just builds up in your system more?

 

[Gman86]

And ya I started prop in the hopes it would keep E2 down and allow me to not even have to consider an ai, but unfortunately that hasn’t been the case. It’s been the opposite. So I will be switching to creams in the next couple weeks.

 

[Gman86]

I used quest one time, and my values were all over the place to the point where there were some obvious lab errors. Nowhere near my consistent LabCorp values.
Your post has me concerned I will have high e2 with 15/day. But I would imagine because your shbg is almost double mine, it just builds up in your system more?

Ya due to my SHBG, I definitely hold onto the testosterone longer in my system, and consequently my E2 must stay elevated for longer

 

[OxS2]

Ya due to my SHBG, I definitely hold onto the testosterone longer in my system, and consequently my E2 must stay elevated for longer

Based on your experience and my labs, do you think 15 is a good starting dose, without overshooting E2, or would you recommend less?