Injectable Progesterone SC may not be the best route of administration

[Gianluca]

@Cataceous @Gman86 @JA Battle I would like to know your opinion on this

I noticed that when I was on the 1,5mg or even worse at 2.5mg dose of Progesterone SC, I would experience some side effects such as being emotional, and way too much on the 2.5mg, and also more body hair growth, crazy sexual drive, erection and I even thought my penis would look bigger as well.

All of this, without increasing my Progesterone that much from baseline, while you guys with similar dosing increased Pro to mid range or more. Perhaps, injection site may play a role as I will explain below; I generally inject on the upper part of my butt, where there is plenty of fat.

I started to scratch my head about it, knowing that Pro oppose E2 so why my symptoms? I figured out that Progesterone can be first converted to androstenedione in fat tissues, possibly explaining the increase hair growth and penis benefits, but androstenedione can also be converted to estrone in the same fatty tissues again possibly explaining my emotional symptom.

Does injecting Pro SC where there is little to no fat would lead to higher Pro levels and less conversion to metabolites? perhaps that is why you guys increased levels more and did not complain about side effects?

 

[Gman86]

@Cataceous @Gman86 @JA Battle I would like to know your opinion on this

I noticed that when I was on the 1,5mg or even worse at 2.5mg dose of Progesterone SC, I would experience some side effects such as being emotional, and way too much on the 2.5mg, and also more body hair growth, crazy sexual drive, erection and I even thought my penis would look bigger as well.

All of this, without increasing my Progesterone that much from baseline, while you guys with similar dosing increased Pro to mid range or more. Perhaps, injection site may play a role as I will explain below; I generally inject on the upper part of my butt, where there is plenty of fat.

I started to scratch my head about it, knowing that Pro oppose E2 so why my symptoms? I figured out that Progesterone can be first converted to androstenedione in fat tissues, possibly explaining the increase hair growth and penis benefits, but androstenedione can also be converted to estrone in the same fatty tissues again possibly explaining my emotional symptom.

Does injecting Pro SC where there is little to no fat would lead to higher Pro levels and less conversion to metabolites? perhaps that is why you guys increased levels more and did not complain about side effects?

First off, great observations/ theories on what could possibly be going on. One thing that confuses me, is that supposedly nandrolone, being a progestin, sensitizes estrogen receptors. Not sure if this is true or not, but Taeian Clark, a person that has probably done more research on nandrolone than anyone else I can think of, claims this is the case. But I know that prog opposes estrogen. Kind of like a balancing mechanism for estrogen. So which is is, does prog inhibit estrogen, or sensitize the estrogen receptors, so that whatever estrogen u have in ur system becomes more potent, as far as its effects go.

And I would assume that most people using injectable prog sc inject in their stomach, where there is more fat than their buttocks, most likely. So I would think that if fat tissue causes prog to convert into these metabolites, that u would have less of these sides, since where ur injecting most likely has less fat than the area that the rest of us are injecting it into.

But sounds like ur experiencing some great benefits, that others would love to experience as well, other than being overly emotional. I think most people would definitely take the extra body hair growth, if it came with those sexual benefits. So I don’t view that part as too much of an issue. But I can see being overly emotional all the time being something that isn’t ideal to be experiencing on a day to day basis, and being a trade off that some guys might not be willing to put up with

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I think most people would definitely take the extra body hair growth, if it came with those sexual benefits.

Absolutely. My occasional dabbling with progesterone has yielded very poor results. Feels sedative and anti-androgenic to me, kills libido and drive, adds brain fog. I expect this is how most men react. Somehow, you are getting the opposite and enjoying androgenic benefits from it. I would run with it.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth, as the saying goes.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Have you ever tried nandrolone Gianluca? Ryan Root has found it helpful in men with low progesterone symptoms, which he lists as anxiety, low libido, and depression. This set of symptoms improves in some men on nandrolone, and he credits nandrolone's agonist activity at the progesterone receptor. Might be interesting for you to experiment with given the positive effects you've seen with progesterone.

 

[Cataceous]

I'm not convinced by this explanation, though that leaves open the question of why your serum progesterone levels aren't higher. There's a two-step process to get to androstenedione, requiring a couple of enzymes. This is also described as a secondary pathway, with the primary being from DHEA. Then there's the weakness of androstenedione and estrone. Of androstenedione, Wiki says "... its affinity for the estrogen receptors is very low, with less than 0.01% of the affinity of estradiol for both the ERα and ERβ." And, "... the estrogenic activity of estrone has been reported to be approximately 4% of that of estradiol." Androstenedione is also described as a weak androgen. It's questionable that it alone could be responsible for greater body hair.

 

[Gman86]

Absolutely. My occasional dabbling with progesterone has yielded very poor results. Feels sedative and anti-androgenic to me, kills libido and drive, adds brain fog. I expect this is how most men react. Somehow, you are getting the opposite and enjoying androgenic benefits from it. I would run with it.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth, as the saying goes.

That’s kind of what I’m thinking lol. Not downplaying how being overly emotional can hinder day to day thinking/ interactions, but damn, I think if it was guaranteed that guys could get the results ur getting from it sexually, even with the being overly emotional and hair growth sides, there would be a line out the door of guys trying to get on this stuff asap! Lol

 

[Gianluca]

First off, great observations/ theories on what could possibly be going on. One thing that confuses me, is that supposedly nandrolone, being a progestin, sensitizes estrogen receptors. Not sure if this is true or not, but Taeian Clark, a person that has probably done more research on nandrolone than anyone else I can think of, claims this is the case. But I know that prog opposes estrogen. Kind of like a balancing mechanism for estrogen. So which is is, does prog inhibit estrogen, or sensitize the estrogen receptors, so that whatever estrogen u have in ur system becomes more potent, as far as its effects go.

And I would assume that most people using injectable prog sc inject in their stomach, where there is more fat than their buttocks, most likely. So I would think that if fat tissue causes prog to convert into these metabolites, that u would have less of these sides, since where ur injecting most likely has less fat than the area that the rest of us are injecting it into.

But sounds like ur experiencing some great benefits, that others would love to experience as well, other than being overly emotional. I think most people would definitely take the extra body hair growth, if it came with those sexual benefits. So I don’t view that part as too much of an issue. But I can see being overly emotional all the time being something that isn’t ideal to be experiencing on a day to day basis, and being a trade off that some guys might not be willing to put up with

thanks for reading and replying.

I can live with more body hair growth, but not feeling overly emotional. When I was on the scrotal cream, I didn't experience these side effects, and Pro level rose to top of the range, so probably discarding the sensitizing effect of Pro to estrogen receptor. I'm gong to try the 1.5mg dose again on the abdomen this time

And I would assume that most people using injectable prog sc inject in their stomach, where there is more fat than their buttocks, most likely. So I would think that if fat tissue causes prog to convert into these metabolites, that u would have less of these sides, since where ur injecting most likely has less fat than the area that the rest of us are injecting it into.

I would think the pad on the upper outer are of buttocks is softer with more fat than the abdomen, at least for those who are not overweight, that is why John Crisler was recommending of dong the shot there for those who experience nodules or pain after injecting test into the stomach. I believe when that happens is because there is little fat between the skin and muscle on the stomach, and injecting oil could stretch things out or create a bump/nodules . This am I did my Pro shot in my quad area, super lean there, and I could see the accumulation of oil under the skin, which was a bit uncomfortable for a while

 

[Gianluca]

Have you ever tried nandrolone Gianluca? Ryan Root has found it helpful in men with low progesterone symptoms, which he lists as anxiety, low libido, and depression. This set of symptoms improves in some men on nandrolone, and he credits nandrolone's agonist activity at the progesterone receptor. Might be interesting for you to experiment with given the positive effects you've seen with progesterone.

I haven't, thanks for suggesting this.

 

[Gianluca]

I'm not convinced by this explanation, though that leaves open the question of why your serum progesterone levels aren't higher. There's a two-step process to get to androstenedione, requiring a couple of enzymes. This is also described as a secondary pathway, with the primary being from DHEA. Then there's the weakness of androstenedione and estrone. Of androstenedione, Wiki says "... its affinity for the estrogen receptors is very low, with less than 0.01% of the affinity of estradiol for both the ERα and ERβ." And, "... the estrogenic activity of estrone has been reported to be approximately 4% of that of estradiol." Androstenedione is also described as a weak androgen. It's questionable that it alone could be responsible for greater body hair.

thanks. I started to think about this possibility when I was reading an article that compared SC vs Transdermal administration of DHEA, with SC increasing more estrogens.

I'm going to try to change injection site and check levels again, see if I get a better response from it in an area with less fat

By the way, what area of the body are you injecting your Pro?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I haven't, thanks for suggesting this.

I think it might be an interesting diagnostic experiment, because what you will get with nandrolone is some progesterone agonism, and what you will not get are the downstream metabolites of progesterone like allopregnanolone. The results might be instructive as to which aspects of progesterone (direct actions versus metabolites) are contributing which effects.

 

[Gman86]

thanks for reading and replying.

I can live with more body hair growth, but not feeling overly emotional. When I was on the scrotal cream, I didn't experience these side effects, and Pro level rose to top of the range, so probably discarding the sensitizing effect of Pro to estrogen receptor. I'm gong to try the 1.5mg dose again on the abdomen this time

When u say scrotal cream, do u mean u were applying prog cream to ur scrotum, or u were on testosterone cream applied to ur scrotum, at the time?

I would think the pad on the upper outer are of buttocks is softer with more fat than the abdomen, at least for those who are not overweight, that is why John Crisler was recommending of dong the shot there for those who experience nodules or pain after injecting test into the stomach. I believe when that happens is because there is little fat between the skin and muscle on the stomach, and injecting oil could stretch things out or create a bump/nodules . This am I did my Pro shot in my quad area, super lean there, and I could see the accumulation of oil under the skin, which was a bit uncomfortable for a while

Ya u could be right, there might be more fat in that area, for a lot of guys

 

[Vince]

@Cataceous @Gman86 @JA Battle I would like to know your opinion on this

I noticed that when I was on the 1,5mg or even worse at 2.5mg dose of Progesterone SC, I would experience some side effects such as being emotional, and way too much on the 2.5mg, and also more body hair growth, crazy sexual drive, erection and I even thought my penis would look bigger as well.

All of this, without increasing my Progesterone that much from baseline, while you guys with similar dosing increased Pro to mid range or more. Perhaps, injection site may play a role as I will explain below; I generally inject on the upper part of my butt, where there is plenty of fat.

I started to scratch my head about it, knowing that Pro oppose E2 so why my symptoms? I figured out that Progesterone can be first converted to androstenedione in fat tissues, possibly explaining the increase hair growth and penis benefits, but androstenedione can also be converted to estrone in the same fatty tissues again possibly explaining my emotional symptom.

Does injecting Pro SC where there is little to no fat would lead to higher Pro levels and less conversion to metabolites? perhaps that is why you guys increased levels more and did not complain about side effects?

How long have you been injecting pro? Are you sure it's not a placebo?

 

[Cataceous]

...
By the way, what area of the body are you injecting your Pro?

Lately it's around the waist, 400 mcg/day.

 

[Gianluca]

When u say scrotal cream, do u mean u were applying prog cream to ur scrotum, or u were on testosterone cream applied to ur scrotum, at the time?

Progesterone scrotal

 

[Gianluca]

How long have you been injecting pro? Are you sure it's not a placebo?

Hi Vince, I have been using the injectable since November. I'm sure it is not placebo, the benefits and sides are noticeable and dose dependent

 

[Gianluca]

I have been reading for the past several months the work of Ray Peat.

He studied Progesterone and Estrogen extensively since the 70"s I believe. He understood the importance of Progesterone, and figured out that the best route of administration is micronized Pro dissolved in Vitamin E.

Dissolving Pro in Vitamin E, will make it avoid that first pass through the liver. He, like some of us here, understood this was important.

Georgi Dinkov who studied extensively the work of Ray Peat, discuss with Dr Mercola in this video, how Progesterone dissolved in Vitamin E, can actually have a 48Hr half life.

I think this could be a possible alternative to injections, if not even better.

You can skip to 30:00mn

 

[Gianluca]

@FunkOdyssey where did you inject your Pro, and for how long you did you try it?

It is interesting comparing my response to yours, typically you would expect your response from Pro. Was your Pro suspended in sesame oil as well?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

@FunkOdyssey where did you inject your Pro, and for how long you did you try it?

Subq in the stomach fat. I've taken it for multiple stints of only a few days each. I can't really tolerate the sedation, brain fog and libido death for longer than that. Doses have ranged from 1 mg to 1.5 mg. It's a 50 mg/mL formula from Empower. I'm not sure on the oil.

I've also tried progesterone cream, which was even worse.

 

[Jim Marlowe]

I don't have the knowledge many of you have about prog, but Georgi Dinkov asserts that certain adverse effects of progesterone in men can be offset by combining it with DHEA. It is clear that Progesterone has great anti-catabolic (anti-cortisol) effects. Take enough of it, and you'll feel like your in mother's womb (in a pro-metabolic / well being sense).

 

[Gianluca]

Subq in the stomach fat. I've taken it for multiple stints of only a few days each. I can't really tolerate the sedation, brain fog and libido death for longer than that. Doses have ranged from 1 mg to 1.5 mg. It's a 50 mg/mL formula from Empower. I'm not sure on the oil.

I've also tried progesterone cream, which was even worse.

that is so interesting, I just increased the dose since Thursday from 1mg to 1,5mg and switched to abdomen, and I feel crazy again, erections and wild sex thoughts, I would say overly exited and feeling wired, which is just the opposite of Progesterone.

I just think I may not doing well injecting steroids into the fat. Even with testosterone I wasn't able to increase level that much with SC, probably because it was converting into other things before it would make it to the blood, same with Pro I would guess.

I may try combining it with testosterone in the same syringe and doing it IM till I get some Progesterone suspended in vitamin E