DHT: How High is Too High

[wannabefan]

I seem to convert T to DHT.

At mild-moderate doses of 100-150mg T cream/day, my DHT levels run around 200. T levels range from 650-800, E2 30, SHBG 30. I have no clinical signs or symptoms to the negative whatsoever. What is the short and long term impact of running such “high” DHT levels? HCt runs 15.5-17.

 

[Systemlord]

What is the short and long term impact of running such “high” DHT levels?

Long term consequences of running high DHT levels is, high libido, maintenance of sexual health, and a high state of well-being.

I’ve seen some men on creams getting DHT in the 3000-8000 ranges. How much DHT is too much is vary individual, acne and BPH is the most common symptom, due to the prostate not functioning correctly and not so much the high DHT.

 

[madman]

I seem to convert T to DHT.

At mild-moderate doses of 100-150mg T cream/day, my DHT levels run around 200. T levels range from 650-800, E2 30, SHBG 30. I have no clinical signs or symptoms to the negative whatsoever. What is the short and long term impact of running such “high” DHT levels? HCt runs 15.5-17.

Look over the paper from Swerdloff.

Even than much more to look at when you get into serum vs tissue (local regulatory mechanisms that tightly control intracellular androgen homeostasis) and saturation point!

Beware of DHT

I Started low dose TRT in 2016 for mainly libido/erection issues but also had mood and concentration problems. Wasn't much successful and cortisol went too low so quit after 8 or 9 months. Then tried HCG which worked for about 2 months but then E got too high and it stopped working at all. From...

www.excelmale.com

Dihydrotestosterone: Biochemistry, Physiology, and Clinical Implications of Elevated Blood Levels (2017)

Estrogen-It's what makes a real man

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/contemporary-considerations-in-the-pathophysiology-of-low-sex-drive-in-men.21766/ Some data have demonstrated that estradiol (E) plays a role in men's SD. Animal data have demonstrated that aromatase knock-out mice have decreased sexual interest...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Hyrulewarrior1978]

I’m still on the side of dht being a paracrine hormone and has minimal to no effects at target tissues, so blood serum levels hold no value.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Should I use a DHT Blocker?

Should you use a DHT blocker ? This article reviews the benefits of DHT and potential risks of high DHT in men. Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is synthesized from testosterone in the prostate gland, teste

www.discountedlabs.com

 

[TLR]

I seem to convert T to DHT.

At mild-moderate doses of 100-150mg T cream/day, my DHT levels run around 200. T levels range from 650-800, E2 30, SHBG 30. I have no clinical signs or symptoms to the negative whatsoever. What is the short and long term impact of running such “high” DHT levels? HCt runs 15.5-17.

When I was on cream 50 mg 2x Daily got my DHT up to around 250….my total T was around 1100…it doesn’t seem like you are converting as bad as you might think. I will admit that despite the Morganthaler Saturation Model and other studies that seem to show blood levels don’t necessarily reflect the levels in the tissues, I have been reluctant to go back on cream after having a TURP for BPH….in fairness, I was having BPH symptoms well before my trial of cream, so I’m not saying that caused it. I just feel like we don’t “know” for sure what elevated DHT does over the long haul, so I prefer to keep my levels physiologic. Additionally, I feel like ass at high levels of T anyway…..

 

[RobRoy]

When I was on cream 50 mg 2x Daily got my DHT up to around 250….my total T was around 1100…it doesn’t seem like you are converting as bad as you might think. I will admit that despite the Morganthaler Saturation Model and other studies that seem to show blood levels don’t necessarily reflect the levels in the tissues, I have been reluctant to go back on cream after having a TURP for BPH….in fairness, I was having BPH symptoms well before my trial of cream, so I’m not saying that caused it. I just feel like we don’t “know” for sure what elevated DHT does over the long haul, so I prefer to keep my levels physiologic. Additionally, I feel like ass at high levels of T anyway…..

We do know for sure what elevated DHT in the serum does long term. What you should be saying is that you want to ignore that. We can't get away from basic bio chemistry and physiology. DHT sensitive tissues have a control mechanism that tightly controls intracellular levels.

 

[Golfboy307]

A very timely post! I was at my doctor yesterday for my six month labs and my DHT was 115. (I am on Test Cyp IM as opposed to cream). The reference range for Quest is something like 15!! - 65. My doctor said the old range went up to 90, but the average DHT number for US males has gone down quite a bit over the last decade. In fairness, my total T had increased to 1020, up from around 825. Not sure why, my dosage is stable (around 90mg per week). Blood test might have been on a peak day.

That all being said, he wasn't concerned, just wanted to make sure I wasn't having any symptoms (urine flow etc.). I looked back and my DHT has ranged from 95-115. I am just going to dial back my Test dose around 10% and go from there. Overall, as System Lord said, feeling great so not going to mess with it.

Thanks for the links above.

 

[RobRoy]

A very timely post! I was at my doctor yesterday for my six month labs and my DHT was 115. (I am on Test Cyp IM as opposed to cream). The reference range for Quest is something like 15!! - 65. My doctor said the old range went up to 90, but the average DHT number for US males has gone down quite a bit over the last decade. In fairness, my total T had increased to 1020, up from around 825. Not sure why, my dosage is stable (around 90mg per week). Blood test might have been on a peak day.

That all being said, he wasn't concerned, just wanted to make sure I wasn't having any symptoms (urine flow etc.). I looked back and my DHT has ranged from 95-115. I am just going to dial back my Test dose around 10% and go from there. Overall, as System Lord said, feeling great so not going to mess with it.

Thanks for the links above.

Remember what you were measuring in the serum is excess and does not have any affect at the tissue level. Testosterone enters the tissue and is then converted to DHT where it then binds to the androgen receptor and then his translocated to the nucleus etc. The saturation point is the point in which the androgen receptors are fully saturated with DHT. Once you reach that saturation point raising DHT has no further affect and it's just excess. That is what you are measuring. So not only is there a saturation point of the androgen receptor but there's also a saturation point of the five alpha reductase enzyme. So you can continue to produce DHT which has no effect and measure it in the serum but there comes a point where you can't raise the DHT any further because the enzyme that creates it becomes fully saturated. That is based on the Vmax in Michaelis-Menten kinetics. So measuring DHT and making decisions off of those levels it's not based on what is actually happening in the tissues. The androgen receptors are also fully saturated a fairly low level of testosterone DHT.

 

[Golfboy307]

Good detail and point.

 

[Wolverine]

We do know for sure what elevated DHT in the serum does long term. What you should be saying is that you want to ignore that. We can't get away from basic bio chemistry and physiology. DHT sensitive tissues have a control mechanism that tightly controls intracellular levels.

Are you saying high DHT is bad? When on scrotal cream my dht on one click (50mg) is 287 with top of range at 67. Total T at 888 and free T at 211.7 (top of range 155). Labs done 9 hours after application. On two clicks my DHT goes to 359. I liked the cream but afraid of that high of DHT long term and had symptoms almost like low E. Wonder if that high of DHT counteracts E? I recall that @Dr Justin Saya MD thinks high DHT can be bad.

 

[Wolverine]

Remember what you were measuring in the serum is excess and does not have any affect at the tissue level. Testosterone enters the tissue and is then converted to DHT where it then binds to the androgen receptor and then his translocated to the nucleus etc. The saturation point is the point in which the androgen receptors are fully saturated with DHT. Once you reach that saturation point raising DHT has no further affect and it's just excess. That is what you are measuring. So not only is there a saturation point of the androgen receptor but there's also a saturation point of the five alpha reductase enzyme. So you can continue to produce DHT which has no effect and measure it in the serum but there comes a point where you can't raise the DHT any further because the enzyme that creates it becomes fully saturated. That is based on the Vmax in Michaelis-Menten kinetics. So measuring DHT and making decisions off of those levels it's not based on what is actually happening in the tissues. The androgen receptors are also fully saturated a fairly low level of testosterone DHT.

Interesting! Thank you. I wonder at what fairly low level of T and DHT androgen receptors are fully saturated. Are you saying that once that saturation point is reached, it doesn't matter how high your DHT is? So if saturation point for DHT is 150, there are no further adverse health effects if the DHT goes to 300 or 400?

 

[Systemlord]

Wonder if that high of DHT counteracts E?

Yes, DHT inhibits E2.

 

[Wolverine]

Yes, DHT inhibits E2.

So the higher your DHT, the worse it is for E. I think even though I had adequate E levels, this explains why I had low E symptoms. So high DHT can be bad. I wonder how all the scrotal cream users get away with super high DHT without it affecting their E.

 

[Systemlord]

I wonder how all the scrotal cream users get away with super high DHT without it affecting their E.

We’re not all the exactly same.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

From a study using scrotal testosterone cream:

From a friend:

 

[Wolverine]

From a study using scrotal testosterone cream:

View attachment 37907
From a friend:

View attachment 37908

Thanks Nelson! Confirms that we are all not the same. Only 50mg of scrotal cream shoots my DHT to almost 300. I have dry skin, achy muscles and joints and feel like crap. On 100mg of test cyp injected per week my DHT is over 100.

 

[RobRoy]

Interesting! Thank you. I wonder at what fairly low level of T and DHT androgen receptors are fully saturated. Are you saying that once that saturation point is reached, it doesn't matter how high your DHT is? So if saturation point for DHT is 150, there are no further adverse health effects if the DHT goes to 300 or 400?

none...none at all. Please read article madman posted above on the physiology of DHT.

 

[RobRoy]

Thanks Nelson! Confirms that we are all not the same. Only 50mg of scrotal cream shoots my DHT to almost 300. I have dry skin, achy muscles and joints and feel like crap. On 100mg of test cyp injected per week my DHT is over 100.

its not the DHT