High DHT converter... becoming a problem for me

[murrayhewitt]

I’ve been on TRT for 3 years now and it has been a constant roller coaster. I believe I have finally narrowed down my issue. I’ve always been a low aromatizer and constantly struggled with headaches, achy joints and fatigue and anxiety Only taken one dose of an AI right in the beginning before knowing better. Here’s my protocols that I’ve tried
50mg 2x week
500 hcg 2x week

20mg EOD
500 hcg 2x week

10mg daily
500 hcg

those were all in my first year. Felt like crap majority of the time. So I tried out the scrotal cream that was all the rage. Felt like crap at first but finally started to feel better and stayed with it for a year or so. Realized though anytime I took anything that remotely had antiestrogenic properties I felt like shit. I was on cialis, tanked my e2, hell even eating a good amount of broccoli would lower it for a few days due to the DIM. I know it doesn’t seem plausible but literally tried it numerous times. So I got off the scrotal cream and back to injections.
50mg x 2 again with 1,000 hcg. Been there for 6 months. Same situation. Now my libido is always extremely high and I’m a very hairy dude. In fact I had a super high libido even before trt with a T level of 200. (Had all the other negative effects tho hence why I decided to get on trt). So recently got lab work done.
T-566
E2 (sensitive)-15
SHBG-25
DHT-137
So my dilemma is I seem to convert a large amount of T to DHT which is driving my e2 down. Haven’t had any cialis or any other e2 lowering substances. I know how awful fin, saw palmetto and all those other 5-alpha reductase inhibitors are. But how else can I lower my DHT not because I’m scared of high DHT but afraid of the constant low e2. My e2 was undectable when natural. Would lowering to a super low weekly dose be an option? Also my Dr. is okay not to knowledgeable on my issue but is open to listening and trying things.
Thanks for any input!

 

[captain]

I heard on a show Mark Gordon say Selenium deficiency could cause high DHT. I don't recall where I seen it.

 

[Cataceous]

Measure progesterone. Supplement if low. This is useful for opposing DHT, but it can also oppose estradiol. If estradiol stays low then you might consider direct supplementation.

 

[Vince]

Of course if you increase your testosterone levels, you will increase your E2 levels. I really don't think a level of 15, it's too low. I don't believe you're feeling the effects of low estrogen, at that level.

 

[murrayhewitt]

Of course if you increase your testosterone levels, you will increase your E2 levels. I really don't think a level of 15, it's too low. I don't believe you're feeling the effects of low estrogen, at that level.

That’s the issue though, increasing my levels make me feel worse. Anything that can convert to DHT seems to and I don’t seem to tolerate extremely high dht. Feel hot, super bad acne on chest and back, and sebherrotic dermatitis. All of these issues seem to relate to high dht.

 

[StepbyStep]

I'm a bit confused here...Am I understanding this correctly?

On injectables for the first year you felt like shit.

On scrotal cream you felt good for the better part of a year as long as you didn't consume something that would lower your estrogen.

Now you're on injectibles again and feel like shit.

You likely had way higher DHT when doing scrotal application with the cream than you ever had on injections.

What was your exact protocol on the cream?
-clicks/mg?
-Application sites?
-Were you on HCG during that time too?

 

[JustPanicNoDisco]

I've been having a lot of low e2 issues myself (achey, popping joints, lethargy, anhedonia, lack of motivation, etc.). These are started when I significantly lowered my E2 with high-dose proviron. Now, like you, I'm super sensitive to anything that lowers E2, including all the items you mentioned. Every time I've raised my T dose, my symptoms have become worse (currently running about 105mg/wk).

Do you have a list of antiestrogenic substances to avoid? I'm trying to be extremely cautious. I will get bloodwork soon to see if my levels are too low (they were low before relative to T - I believe the ratio was like 40:1). I'm unsure whether I have receptor damage or whether estrogen is just too low relative to testosterone....

Some of the symptoms associated with hormone replacement therapy are an absolute mystery sometimes...

 

[murrayhewitt]

I'm a bit confused here...Am I understanding this correctly?

On injectables for the first year you felt like shit.

On scrotal cream you felt good for the better part of a year as long as you didn't consume something that would lower your estrogen.

Now you're on injectibles again and feel like shit.

You likely had way higher DHT when doing scrotal application with the cream than you ever had on injections.

What was your exact protocol on the cream?
-clicks/mg?
-Application sites?
-Were you on HCG during that time too?

I get what your saying but while I was on the scrotal cream I was running extremely high T levels theorizing that allowed my e2 to finally get high enough. I didn’t feel comfortable running that high of T and DHT levels long term combined with the pain in the butt that applying cream twice a day was. Now that I’m back at normal T levels im fairly certain I convert heavily to DHT, driving down my e2. Then any time I have anything that could potentially lose my e2 comes in to play I feel horrible for days. Application was scrotal and abdomen, HCG the last 6 months of that protocol.

 

[murrayhewitt]

I'm a bit confused here...Am I understanding this correctly?

On injectables for the first year you felt like shit.

On scrotal cream you felt good for the better part of a year as long as you didn't consume something that would lower your estrogen.

Now you're on injectibles again and feel like shit.

You likely had way higher DHT when doing scrotal application with the cream than you ever had on injections.

What was your exact protocol on the cream?
-clicks/mg?
-Application sites?
-Were you on HCG during that time too?

Correct, now here’s where the difference comes in. I’m sure my test level with scrotal cream would peak way higher causing there to be some level of e2 conversion. I was doing 200mg total all to the scrotum, which even though my DHT was through the roof so was my test which allowed enough e2 to convert. It was something I wasnt

 

[murrayhewitt]

I've been having a lot of low e2 issues myself (achey, popping joints, lethargy, anhedonia, lack of motivation, etc.). These are started when I significantly lowered my E2 with high-dose proviron. Now, like you, I'm super sensitive to anything that lowers E2, including all the items you mentioned. Every time I've raised my T dose, my symptoms have become worse (currently running about 105mg/wk).

Do you have a list of antiestrogenic substances to avoid? I'm trying to be extremely cautious. I will get bloodwork soon to see if my levels are too low (they were low before relative to T - I believe the ratio was like 40:1). I'm unsure whether I have receptor damage or whether estrogen is just too low relative to testosterone....

Some of the symptoms associated with hormone replacement therapy are an absolute mystery sometimes...

Things I have noticed are
Cialis/viagra
Zinc
DIM (broccoli etc.)

 

[StepbyStep]

Correct, now here’s where the difference comes in. I’m sure my test level with scrotal cream would peak way higher causing there to be some level of e2 conversion. I was doing 200mg total all to the scrotum, which even though my DHT was through the roof so was my test which allowed enough e2 to convert. It was something I wasnt

I follow you now and I agree. Did you get labs to confirm that your E2 was indeed higher during the protocol that you felt good on? I bet it way, no doubt. I wouldn't want to be on 200mg all to the scrotum long term either man. I'm on 50mg to the scrotum per day and I often wonder what the high DHT is doing to my body...even at a 1/4 of the dose you were on.

If you're with Defy I'm sure they'd be able to get you some sort of Estrogen to take. It'd definitely be worth trying.

 

[murrayhewitt]

Does going to a daily regimen seem to lower DHT conversion? It would make sense as it’s less of a peak dosing to convert over to DHT. Anyone have any thoughts or experience?

 

[Gman86]

Things I have noticed are
Cialis/viagra
Zinc
DIM (broccoli etc.)

How much zinc would it take to notice low E2 symptoms?

Also, sounds like direct E2 supplementation is the answer, like @Cataceous said. I wouldn’t spend more time trying to brainstorm what to do. I would supplement with E2 and just work on figuring out the best form, dose and frequency to use

 

[Charliebizz]

Does going to a daily regimen seem to lower DHT conversion? It would make sense as it’s less of a peak dosing to convert over to DHT. Anyone have any thoughts or experience?

You ever figure out your issues ?

 

[Omi7276]

How much zinc would it take to notice low E2 symptoms?

Also, sounds like direct E2 supplementation is the answer, like @Cataceous said. I wouldn’t spend more time trying to brainstorm what to do. I would supplement with E2 and just work on figuring out the best form, dose and frequency to use

Any ballpark figure for Estradiol valerate oral dose ?

 

[Systemlord]

Any ballpark figure for Estradiol valerate oral dose ?

2 mg

 

[Omi7276]

2 mg

Everyday or EOD ?

 

[Mastodont]

Its amazing the OP seems to not have tried injections without HCG

 

[RobRoy]

I get what your saying but while I was on the scrotal cream I was running extremely high T levels theorizing that allowed my e2 to finally get high enough. I didn’t feel comfortable running that high of T and DHT levels long term combined with the pain in the butt that applying cream twice a day was. Now that I’m back at normal T levels im fairly certain I convert heavily to DHT, driving down my e2. Then any time I have anything that could potentially lose my e2 comes in to play I feel horrible for days. Application was scrotal and abdomen, HCG the last 6 months of that protocol.

So you felt really good for a year with really good testosterone levels but you were afraid of them. Too bad for you. Also I'm sorry to hear that literally 11 seconds twice a day was a pain in the butt. When I hear someone say that I hear two things either they're too lazy to take 11 seconds twice a day to improve the quality of their life or they don't have a real problem. Take any cancer patient and ask them if 11 seconds twice a day is too much for them to put their cancer in remission or cure their cancer. You just make things way too complicated for yourself and sometimes men like yourself can be their own worst enemy. You totally suffer paralysis from over analysis. Unless you want to take oral estradiol to.raise your estrogen, then the best way to raise estrogen is to raise testosterone levels. Such a simple problem that you are making so much more complicated than it really is. You are doing fine for a year go back to what made you feel fine for a year and then leave it all alone and go do something productive.