Blood panel, how's mine look?

[Cataceous]

...
No one around here believes the more the better. I'd never heard anyone say that or write that.

Actions speak louder than words. Even Defy Medical seems to routinely start guys with well over 100 mg TC/week. Yet the available evidence does not support this approach when overall good health is the goal. It's easily inferred that this is a result of more-is-better thinking specific to testosterone.

 

[Vince]

Actions speak louder than words. Even Defy Medical seems to routinely start guys with well over 100 mg TC/week. Yet the available evidence does not support this approach when overall good health is the goal. It's easily inferred that this is a result of more-is-better thinking specific to testosterone.

I disagree 100% with your theory. Lower testosterone levels equal better health. There's so much you're missing.

 

[Cataceous]

I disagree 100% with your theory. Lower testosterone levels equal better health. There's so much you're missing.

The usual straw-man nonsense. Let me fix that for you: "Physiological testosterone levels equal better health."

 

[Vince]

The usual straw man nonsense. Let me fix that for you: "Physiological testosterone levels equal better health."

Yes. there are members like you who need lower levels. My understanding is anxiety can be terrible and if someone needs lower level to combat anxiety, I'm all for it.

This one size fits off doesn't work for me.

 

[Cataceous]

Yes. there are members like you who need lower levels. My understanding is anxiety can be terrible and if someone needs lower level to combat anxiety, I'm all for it.

This one size fits off doesn't work for me.

It's absurd to characterize a normal range that encompasses at least 95% of the population as "one size". Furthermore, as a long-time resident here you should be well aware that being an outlier is problematic, and is associated with reduced longevity and other problems. You've convinced yourself that you need supraphysiological amounts of testosterone. Obviously in the absence of objective data I can't disprove that. But from a statistical standpoint, the fraction of men who actually need these higher doses for optimal health is going to be minuscule.

By the way, I personally find higher doses to be in some respects sedating and demotivating. Great for athleticism, but terrible for just about everything else.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

My aromatization runs at the higher end. In the last test estradiol was about 29 pg/mL, which would be unremarkable except that testosterone was only about 310 ng/dL.

By the way, I personally find higher doses to be in some respects sedating and demotivating. Great for athleticism, but terrible for just about everything else.

I would suggest the second statement follows from the first. Excessive E2 has anti-dopaminergic effects via at least three distinct mechanisms: disinhibited prolactin release (prolactin reduces DA synthesis and firing), downregulation of D1 and D2 receptors, and a serotonin/GABA crosstalk phenomenon (E2 increases serotonin synthesis, reduces its clearance, and increases expression of 5-HT2C receptors, while activation of 5-HT2C receptors on GABA neurons increases GABA release, which then reduces firing of DA neurons). There's even a possible fourth mechanism whereby high E2 increases progesterone and allopregnanolone synthesis in the brain that I'm still trying to wrap my head around (more GABA-A potentiation from these).

As an aside, there are fascinating differences in male vs. female neurobiology which explain why high levels of E2 do not have these anti-dopaminergic effects in women (just the opposite, in fact). Doesn't bode well for MtF trans people.

But when I started out with 100 mg testosterone cypionate per week delivered EOD it put TT at about 1,250 ng/dL.

I am very curious what your E2 was at this 1250 ng/dL T level, if it was 29 pg/mL at only 310 ng/dL T. I've been at ~1250 ng/dL total T with an E2 of 87 pg/mL, which felt like apathetic brain-fogged garbage, and am more recently at ~1250 ng/dL T with an E2 of 30 pg/mL, which feels great. Critically, the lower E2 needs to be achieved naturally and not via aromatase inhibition.

I think it would be a fun project to transform you from a high aromatizer into a low aromatizer, with lower % BF, lower insulin, and longer needles delivering T deeper into the muscles. Would your disparaging attitude towards higher doses survive the experience of walking around with 1200 total T and 30 pg/mL E2? I, for one, would love to find out.

 

[Vince]

It's absurd to characterize a normal range that encompasses at least 95% of the population as "one size". Furthermore, as a long-time resident here you should be well aware that being an outlier is problematic, and is associated with reduced longevity and other problems. You've convinced yourself that you need supraphysiological amounts of testosterone. Obviously in the absence of objective data I can't disprove that. But from a statistical standpoint, the fraction of men who actually need these higher doses for optimal health is going to be minuscule.

By the way, I personally find higher doses to be in some respects sedating and demotivating. Great for athleticism, but terrible for just about everything else.

I'm so sorry you feel that way. I will never believe like you do that one size fits all. Not every member gets anxiety I've never had but I do know people that do. They're not even on TRT.

I was waiting for you to speak up when Nelson said he's taking 600 mg of Co q10. I'm sure his levels are out of range.

Post in thread 'Treatment of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia with D-Ribose'

Apr 20, 2016

I love how much better I feel with Coenzyme Q-10 high dose of 600 mg per day and L-Carnitine 2000 mg/day

• Nelson Vergel

 

[Cataceous]

... I will never believe like you do that one size fits all. Not every member gets anxiety I've never had but I do know people that do. They're not even on TRT.

I was waiting for you to speak up when Nelson said he's taking 600 mg of Co q10. I'm sure his levels are out of range.
...

Is the "one size" my counsel for moderation when starting out? If so you're acting as though the low-and-slow approach to hormone replacement—and often to meds/supplements in general—is some weird idea I came up with at random. Do you remember John Crisler?

 

[Vince]

Mindless repetition does nicely enhance the insipidness of your content. Is the "one size" my counsel for moderation when starting out? If so you're acting as though the low-and-slow approach to hormone replacement—and often to meds/supplements in general—is some weird idea I came up with at random. Do you remember John Crisler?

The levels issue are only for testosterone?

Feature Article: January 2019 - In Memoriam: Dr. John Crisler - Age Management Medicine Group (AMMG)

Feature Article: January 2019 - In Memoriam: Dr. John Crisler

agemed.org

 

[Cataceous]

I would suggest the second statement follows from the first. Excessive E2 has anti-dopaminergic effects via at least three distinct mechanisms: disinhibited prolactin release (prolactin reduces DA synthesis and firing), downregulation of D1 and D2 receptors, and a serotonin/GABA crosstalk phenomenon (E2 increases serotonin synthesis, reduces its clearance, and increases expression of 5-HT2C receptors, while activation of 5-HT2C receptors on GABA neurons increases GABA release, which then reduces firing of DA neurons). There's even a possible fourth mechanism whereby high E2 increases progesterone and allopregnanolone synthesis in the brain that I'm still trying to wrap my head around (more GABA-A potentiation from these).

As an aside, there are fascinating differences in male vs. female neurobiology which explain why high levels of E2 do not have these anti-dopaminergic effects in women (just the opposite, in fact). Doesn't bode well for MtF trans people.
...

There's this complexity, and probably even more. I have dabbled with anastrozole when my TRT dose was higher, and I also had a period with very low estradiol for some other reason. I don't recall that these had much effect on motivation. The anastrozole would dampen excessive emotionalism. Very low estradiol totally knocked out libido and made me feel emotionally flat.

I am very curious what your E2 was at this 1250 ng/dL T level, if it was 29 pg/mL at only 310 ng/dL T. I've been at ~1250 ng/dL total T with an E2 of 87 pg/mL, which felt like apathetic brain-fogged garbage, and am more recently at ~1250 ng/dL T with an E2 of 30 pg/mL, which feels great. Critically, the lower E2 needs to be achieved naturally and not via aromatase inhibition.

I think it would be a fun project to transform you from a high aromatizer into a low aromatizer, with lower % BF, lower insulin, and longer needles delivering T deeper into the muscles. Would your disparaging attitude towards higher doses survive the experience of walking around with 1200 total T and 30 pg/mL E2? I, for one, would love to find out.

My E2 was 57 pg/mL when TT was close to 1,250 ng/dL. Interestingly that's one of my lower aromatization rates when not on an AI. I wonder if the saturation effect was starting to kick in? I also see that early on I was using Androgel and measured TT ~600 ng/dL and E2 ~20 pg/mL, an even lower rate of aromatization, perhaps due to the DHT.

I doubt body fat is much of an issue. Not that it can be trusted, but the scale puts BF at 12%. In any case, I would claim to be skinny-muscular, not skinny-fat. Similarly I doubt insulin is much of an issue. Last year the fasting value was 2 uIU/mL, below the reference range. I expect my skepticism would survive the experience of 1,200 ng/dL TT and 30 pg/mL E2. The enhanced athleticism would again be fun. But if the headaches returned then stopping would be a no-brainer, pardon the pun. Similarly, the deteriorating lipids would not be appreciated. With respect to libido and sexual function, I have to mention again that even with that recent excessive E2/T ratio and low TT, these parameters were more consistently good than at any other time on TRT. Admittedly there's added complexity here with my continued use of kisspeptin-10 and gonadorelin. But my expectation is that knocking these out would simply make things worse. I assume your suggested experiment results in full HPTA suppression? I also assume that hCG use would be excluded because that would make it virtually impossible to keep E2 down at 30 pg/mL naturally.

Though Vince doesn't seem to get it, I think I've made it pretty clear that I'm not opposed to informed individuals such as yourself experimenting with TRT doses and ancillaries as you see fit. What bothers me is seeing this parade of guys who are being harmed by high doses given right from the start. As I have said many times before, these situations often get worse when the symptoms of excess are not addressed by lowering the dose. Instead we see bloodletting for high HCT and AIs for high E2. More subtle issues often remain unaddressed. I believe that some fraction of men will have problems from the secondary effects of HPTA shutdown. But at this time there's little official recognition of this, or of the possibility that short-acting testosterone is a solution.

 

[Vince]

There's this complexity, and probably even more. I have dabbled with anastrozole when my TRT dose was higher, and I also had a period with very low estradiol for some other reason. I don't recall that these had much effect on motivation. The anastrozole would dampen excessive emotionalism. Very low estradiol totally knocked out libido and made me feel emotionally flat.



My E2 was 57 pg/mL when TT was close to 1,250 ng/dL. Interestingly that's one of my lower aromatization rates when not on an AI. I wonder if the saturation effect was starting to kick in? I also see that early on I was using Androgel and measured TT ~600 ng/dL and E2 ~20 pg/mL, an even lower rate of aromatization, perhaps due to the DHT.

I doubt body fat is much of an issue. Not that it can be trusted, but the scale puts BF at 12%. In any case, I would claim to be skinny-muscular, not skinny-fat. Similarly I doubt insulin is much of an issue. Last year the fasting value was 2 uIU/mL, below the reference range. I expect my skepticism would survive the experience of 1,200 ng/dL TT and 30 pg/mL E2. The enhanced athleticism would again be fun. But if the headaches returned then stopping would be a no-brainer, pardon the pun. Similarly, the deteriorating lipids would not be appreciated. With respect to libido and sexual function, I have to mention again that even with that recent excessive E2/T ratio and low TT, these parameters were more consistently good than at any other time on TRT. Admittedly there's added complexity here with my continued use of kisspeptin-10 and gonadorelin. But my expectation is that knocking these out would simply make things worse. I assume your suggested experiment results in full HPTA suppression? I also assume that hCG use would be excluded because that would make it virtually impossible to keep E2 down at 30 pg/mL naturally.

Though Vince doesn't seem to get it, I think I've made it pretty clear that I'm not opposed to informed individuals such as yourself experimenting with TRT doses and ancillaries as you see fit. What bothers me is seeing this parade of guys who are being harmed by high doses given right from the start. As I have said many times before, these situations often get worse when the symptoms of excess are not addressed by lowering the dose. Instead we see bloodletting for high HCT and AIs for high E2. More subtle issues often remain unaddressed. I believe that some fraction of men will have problems from the secondary effects of HPTA shutdown. But at this time there's little official recognition of this, or of the possibility that short-acting testosterone is a solution.

Still you can't group everyone as the same. I started with 70 mg of T twice a week along with 500 IU twice a week. All my brain fog was gone. It was amazing. For whatever reason I was in great shape before TRT. What really helps me is creatine. As you may have read in my threads, it healed my tendonitis in my achilles tendon. But still not everyone does good on creatine again. One size does not fit all. I know that goes against your theories