Adding hcg, can someone explain e2 conversion?

[klepp0906]

So I’ve ordered some hcg among other things (doc won’t rx) in preparation of ceasing trt. I’m going to give it one more shot with the addition of hcg first. Can’t hurt as waking my nuts is gonna be necessary either way.

im gonna start at 500mg twice a week when I do my test injections but I’ve read a lot of anecdotal information that e2 skyrockets estrogen. Is this directly or by the same mechanism as testosterone?

to simplify what I’m asking let me give an example.

with no AI I have had labs pegging my estrogen at 35 with a TT of 1100. Now there’s no way of knowing how much the addition of hcg will increase my TT and I plan to decrease my test dose to compensate, but would it stand to reason that if i was able to get my TT to the same number with the addition of hcg, that my e2 number would be the same?

 

[Cataceous]

It's likely that the excess estradiol from hCG use is primarily a result of hCG's long half-life and its direct stimulation of aromatization in Leydig cells. A rise in intratesticular testosterone is a necessary part of the process, but under natural conditions, when it is LH supporting intratesticular testosterone, we don't see the excessive estradiol. Endogenous testosterone production stimulated by hCG will add to the total, and will cause a proportional rise in estradiol. But with hCG doses on the order of 1,000 IU per week or less it seems less common for endogenous production to approach physiological levels.

 

[klepp0906]

It's likely that the excess estradiol from hCG use is primarily a result of hCG's long half-life and its direct stimulation of aromatization in Leydig cells. A rise in intratesticular testosterone is a necessary part of the process, but under natural conditions, when it is LH supporting intratesticular testosterone, we don't see the excessive estradiol. Endogenous testosterone production stimulated by hCG will add to the total, and will cause a proportional rise in estradiol. But with hCG doses on the order of 1,000 IU per week or less it seems less common for endogenous production to approach physiological levels.

ok, once again thank you for the solid information.

as I'm sure you can surmise - I'm hellbent on not taking an AI, so hoping I can keep things reasonable at perhaps 40mg TE/500mg HCG every 3.5d from an estrogen standpoint.

Do you have an opinion on an upfront "blast" of sorts with the hcg to get the boys to wake up? I see a lot of doctors recommending huge doses like 1500mg 3x a week and such. Yikes.

 

[Cataceous]

My experience is that with hCG use ranging from 500-1,000 IU per week I see an extra 20 pg/mL or so of estradiol.

It's possible that higher doses would restore testicular function sooner, but it also increases the chance of side effects. Personally I wouldn't go over 1,500 IU a week while still on TRT. But 1,000-1,500 IU/week is about the lowest you'll see with hCG monotherapy, so you could go higher if desired after ending TRT. Are you planning to use a SERM with or after hCG?

 

[klepp0906]

My experience is that with hCG use ranging from 500-1,000 IU per week I see an extra 20 pg/mL or so of estradiol.

It's possible that higher doses would restore testicular function sooner, but it also increases the chance of side effects. Personally I wouldn't go over 1,500 IU a week while still on TRT. But 1,000-1,500 IU/week is about the lowest you'll see with hCG monotherapy, so you could go higher if desired after ending TRT. Are you planning to use a SERM with or after hCG?

in a perfect world, the addition of hcg would give me my nuts back in form and function and I'd continue on with trt. This is contingent upon being able to restore my testicular function with a dose low enough to make it financially reasonable as I dont have an rx which leaves me paying a fortune and sourcing it from overseas which has to be ordered in reasonable size batches due to the timeframe it takes for turnaround. That would go a long way in making me feel better about the endeavor.

The finasteride i began a week or so ago also seemed to almost completely arrest the bph symptoms that have been plaguing me. its much improved and i imagine it will only get better with time. I did notice a bit of a hit in the sexual department. libido seems suppressed a noticeable amount, quality erections are harder to achieve, and its a bit less sensitive. Hoping these things improve with time after the system shock of chopping my DHT down like a tree. that or the addition of hcg when it arrives patches things back up.

However even with all going well, im faced with a now or never type situation. I keep reading stories of long term steroid users trying to restart after xx years (usually 5+) and failing with the doctor telling them sorry, youre never gonna be whole again. So to that end (or if things dont go well) to answer your question; I did purchase more than enough clomid and nolvadex as well. Also have tons of anastrazole on hand should I need it while I continue on trt after the addition of hcg, but i really dont want to take it if it can be avoided.

I did come across a study not too long ago that indicated a quote "marked" improvement in libido and sexual function for men on trt once estrogen surpassed 50. Hopefully I can strike that balance with the hcg. From the sounds of it, my levels will increase. No two ways about it. How much and how it'll affect me is the question.

 

[Cataceous]

I found TRT to be much better with hCG than without. Hopefully you will too.

 

[klepp0906]

Thanks for the infusion of optimism. While I'd be lying if i said there wasnt a strong desire to be pharmaceutical free at my age, the reality is that train may have left the building or I might end up spending a bunch of time only to be disappointed or unsatisfied and get back on anyhow.

It would go a long way if becoming "much better" turns out to be the case. Of course the next hurdle then becomes how long will I be able to reliably source peptides as it seems hcg is gonna be a hard sell with my doc. For whatever reason he said he cant rx, I'd have to go to a fertility clinic.

I know i could go through a typical mens/anti-aging type center and likely fare better, but the cost from what ive seen is pretty exorbitant compared to what im paying now.

either way, one step at a time

 

[DixieWrecked]

I always found trt with HCG better as well. There was something missing without it and I never felt right.

 

[klepp0906]

I always found trt with HCG better as well. There was something missing without it and I never felt right.

able to elaborate at all? i know some things are hard to peg so I understand if you cant. Makes me eager for mine to arrive either way. Still gonna be awhile though, the whole overseas/customs thing relative to the damned covid crap resulted in a ~4 week timetable on shipping. oof.

 

[DixieWrecked]

My genitals feel like they are almost 100% non functional without it. Shriveled up. I have brain fog without it. Low energy.

 

[klepp0906]

My genitals feel like they are almost 100% non functional without it. Shriveled up. I have brain fog without it. Low energy.

reaaaaally? I’ve struggled with energy almost the entire time I was on trt. I wonder if there’s a link somewhere. If that helps my energy levels id very likely be sold.

did you find it helped with erectile function any?

thanks for your input btw

 

[DixieWrecked]

reaaaaally? I’ve struggled with energy almost the entire time I was on trt. I wonder if there’s a link somewhere. If that helps my energy levels id very likely be sold.

did you find it helped with erectile function any?

thanks for your input btw

yes absolutely. my genitals in general feel better with the HCG. Without it, something is totally off.

 

[klepp0906]

yes absolutely. my genitals in general feel better with the HCG. Without it, something is totally off.

did you start without hcg then add it later then? Care to share your dose and how long it took for things down there to return to form?

 

[DixieWrecked]

man you should not follow my lead cuz I am way too impatient. I've felt really desperate over my TRT journey and that led to desperate and hasty decisions being made. About a month and a half ago, maybe a little more, I dropped my dose to 100mg weekly (eod shots). I still felt bad. I added the hCG about a month ago. I used to take hCG and test but my test was 180mg weekly. That dose is just too high for me. hCG did help me even then. There is something missing without it. I am thinking this lower dose of test with 300iu of hCG eod might be my sweet spot. It's the best i've felt on TRT and I feel good enough that I don't feel that desperation which causes me to make hasty decisions. No bloodwork on this protocol yet. I hope I continue to settle in and feel even better

 

[klepp0906]

oh i dont take anyones word or experience as gospel. I've been at it long enough that im well aware what goes for the goose doesnt go for the gander so to speak.

still others experiences relative to my own, or what I'm already thinking gives me options or a starting point sometimes.

i have the hcg coming as we speak (in customs says usps tracking) and that leaves me with it either making me feel better/returning my balls to me.. or not, and me using it to jump off trt. The balding I could live with if it werent for the bph it brought on. Add in the fact my nuts are the size of grapes now and i have to either remove some detriments or call it.

ive dropped my dose to 100mg a week split into 2 and will drop it to 80 once i start the hcg which I intended to do at 1000iu a week split into 2 as well. trying to keep things simple.

Glad things are working out well for you and appreciate your input!

 

[Fernando Almaguer]

I found TRT to be much better with hCG than without. Hopefully you will too.

Cataceous,

Do you know if there's any truth to fibrosis of the testes with long term testosterone usage?

If so, is that why my doc (Lipshultz) want me to come off for a month out of the year and just do clomid and HCG (high dose)?

 

[Cataceous]

Cataceous,

Do you know if there's any truth to fibrosis of the testes with long term testosterone usage?

If so, is that why my doc (Lipshultz) want me to come off for a month out of the year and just do clomid and HCG (high dose)?

I haven't heard about such an association, nor seen credible research on it. However, if the usual testicular atrophy seen under TRT may somehow be categorized as fibrosis then there is some truth in the idea. Nonetheless, conventional wisdom says that testicular atrophy from TRT is largely reversible if TRT is ended, or if hCG is used concurrently. It doesn't seem reasonable to go through the unpleasantness of a restart every year when you can instead just take low doses of hCG with your TRT.