Lowering dose - Bloodwork on 80mg/wk test + 500iu HCG

[onetwonine]

Got some bloodwork done for my current trt protocol

80mg of test c or e a week split into two doses
500iu of hcg a week split into two doses

Injected twice a week on the same day (mon/thurs).

TT: 23.4 nmol/L (675ng/dl)
FT: 840 pmol/L (0.84nmol/l, ~24ng/dl) - HIGH
E2: 175 pmol/L (canadian standard e2 test) - HIGH

Both my E2 and Free test are obscenely out of range for a trough reading. My shbg is almost certainly in the single digits.

I will be dropping the hcg and going to a 5mg/day test only protocol to see what my numbers are and how I feel.

I am curious if I need an extremly low TT number to hit proper FT and E2 numbers. In which case i may consider trying to come off.

 

[DixieWrecked]

how are you feeling? just curious

 

[onetwonine]

how are you feeling? just curious

I've been on AAS/TRT for ~8 years now.

Outside of a small window, my libido/erectifle function/penis sensitivity has never been right.

Everything else is fine. I'm more muscular than I really need to be. My mood is mostly fine and I'm very used to any swings that may happen.

The small window it was right, I had a tiny bit of test undecanoate with no way of getting anything else, that i was rationing - injecting minuscule amounts. I didn't really keep a log then so I don't know what I was actually doing.

I think these labs are illuminating why. I don't know tbh, but I think its worth a shot.

I'm going to try get a ~400TT and FT about havlf what it is in these labs.

 

[Vince]

I've been on AAS/TRT for ~8 years now.

Outside of a small window, my libido/erectifle function/penis sensitivity has never been right.

Everything else is fine. I'm more muscular than I really need to be. My mood is mostly fine and I'm very used to any swings that may happen.

The small window it was right, I had a tiny bit of test undecanoate with no way of getting anything else, that i was rationing - injecting minuscule amounts. I didn't really keep a log then so I don't know what I was actually doing.

I think these labs are illuminating why. I don't know tbh, but I think its worth a shot.

I'm going to try get a ~400TT and FT about havlf what it is in these labs.

So your new protocol is 5 mg of testosterone cypionate daily. Pretty low but because of your low shbg it may work. Please post labs and let us know how you feel.

 

[DixieWrecked]

I've been on AAS/TRT for ~8 years now.

Outside of a small window, my libido/erectifle function/penis sensitivity has never been right.

Everything else is fine. I'm more muscular than I really need to be. My mood is mostly fine and I'm very used to any swings that may happen.

The small window it was right, I had a tiny bit of test undecanoate with no way of getting anything else, that i was rationing - injecting minuscule amounts. I didn't really keep a log then so I don't know what I was actually doing.

I think these labs are illuminating why. I don't know tbh, but I think its worth a shot.

I'm going to try get a ~400TT and FT about havlf what it is in these labs.

Gotcha. Let us know how it goes please. I know exactly what you mean. The trt/aas life can have people chasing the dragon. Kudos to you for having the guts to lower your dose. I bet you will eventually find success with this moderate perspective.

 

[SS1LE]

Do you know what your TT and FT is with out being on TRT? if you aiming for TT of 400 likely better just to come off and see how things go.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

if you have been on AAS forever you most likely need a much higher dose. barely anyone will feel good on 80mg, but i'm sure there is exception. have you tried 240mg/week? you could try a different ester, i feel amazing on daily 30-40mg daily Tprop, now this is unique to me. check out this vid; he talks about how to manage s/x - pretty insightful info IMO, speaks also how low doses make no sense at all

 

[Belekas]

if you have been on AAS forever you most likely need a much higher dose. barely anyone will feel good on 80mg, but i'm sure there is exception. have you tried 240mg/week? you could try a different ester, i feel amazing on daily 30-40mg daily Tprop, now this is unique to me. check out this vid; he talks about how to manage s/x - pretty insightful info IMO, speaks also how low doses make no sense at all

I think I agree on this one too. I will give it a listen, I'm also very interested in this particular issue. I've talked to TheAnabolicDoc and he pretty much stated a very interesting thing that muscles and brain need different amounts of T. Like I see athletic/cosmetic improvements with a low dose say 75-80mg but I still feel fucked in my head, my cognition feels off and some other sides which I won't even go into, and thats exactly why he suggested to try a larger dose to see if it helps. I've been on T probably the last 15 years on/off. 3 years off and re-started @ 100mg last year so less then a year in. Before that spent 3 years on 250mg/week. But still had overstimulation and elevated BP even though was in top notch form, cardio daily, eating like a future Olympian and training like an animal for the last 15 years but smoking indica daily and stressed to the hills. So I'm still skeptical about low doses if they are even worth for me because I feel good without it. And even a small dose gives me BP elevation which to combat I have to do many things which don't get me wrong I like doing but then ask myself if its fucking worth it because I have to focus elsewhere, if you know what I mean. And still I get phases where my BP stays absolutely phenomenal sub 110 and sub 70s and then I get sick catch a cold or flu and that fucked me up properly and boom my BP skyrockets and I feel absolutely like shit. If I'm so sensitive to T then def its not something I want to have going forward at least for now.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

I think I agree on this one too. I will give it a listen, I'm also very interested in this particular issue. I've talked to TheAnabolicDoc and he pretty much stated a very interesting thing that muscles and brain need different amounts of T. Like I see athletic/cosmetic improvements with a low dose say 75-80mg but I still feel fucked in my head, my cognition feels off and some other sides which I won't even go into, and thats exactly why he suggested to try a larger dose to see if it helps. I've been on T probably the last 15 years on/off. 3 years off and re-started @ 100mg last year so less then a year in. Before that spent 3 years on 250mg/week. But still had overstimulation and elevated BP even though was in top notch form, cardio daily, eating like a future Olympian and training like an animal for the last 15 years but smoking indica daily and stressed to the hills. So I'm still skeptical about low doses if they are even worth for me because I feel good without it. And even a small dose gives me BP elevation which to combat I have to do many things which don't get me wrong I like doing but then ask myself if its fucking worth it because I have to focus elsewhere, if you know what I mean. And still I get phases where my BP stays absolutely phenomenal sub 110 and sub 70s and then I get sick catch a cold or flu and that fucked me up properly and boom my BP skyrockets and I feel absolutely like shit. If I'm so sensitive to T then def its not something I want to have going forward at least for now.

that BP has to be taken seriously. I also have elevated BP, but I had elevated BP (160/100) in my 20's and now i'm 44. so in addition to telmisartan i will try some bystolic. but the benefits of higher dose T are amazing for me. I look so much better then over a year ago. i feel great. i have drive. but i can not go below 180-200mg range, and TBH i feel best in the 210-250mg range. and on Tprop only. around 300 i start feeling jitters/anxious but not sure if this is T or E2, according to the guy in the vid this could be e2, but i tried AI's they did not do much
some will say that i'm on a small cycle, but this is such nonsense, as my levels on even 210 are around 973ng/dl and 30pg/ml free T (labcorp i dont know essay), before the next injection. so I assume due to the 19h half life of Tprop my levels are probably higher on the same day.
I also noticed that using any nicotine will ramp my BP high, and caffeine makes it worse too. TBH a lot of BP is probably purely stress related, and i think that T has a pretty minor effect on it.

 

[Belekas]

that BP has to be taken seriously. I also have elevated BP, but I had elevated BP (160/100) in my 20's and now i'm 44. so in addition to telmisartan i will try some bystolic. but the benefits of higher dose T are amazing for me. I look so much better then over a year ago. i feel great. i have drive. but i can not go below 180-200mg range, and TBH i feel best in the 210-250mg range. and on Tprop only. around 300 i start feeling jitters/anxious but not sure if this is T or E2, according to the guy in the vid this could be e2, but i tried AI's they did not do much
some will say that i'm on a small cycle, but this is such nonsense, as my levels on even 210 are around 973ng/dl and 30pg/ml free T (labcorp i dont know essay), before the next injection. so I assume due to the 19h half life of Tprop my levels are probably higher on the same day.
I also noticed that using any nicotine will ramp my BP high, and caffeine makes it worse too. TBH a lot of BP is probably purely stress related, and i think that T has a pretty minor effect on it.

Absolutely agree. BP aint no joke. I tried Telmisartan some days ago for 3 days straight and felt like fucking death. Also tried Bystolic/Nebivolol and couldnt even sleep all night. So seems I cant even tolerate these meds at all. TBH I can barely tolerate anything after extensive abuse of drugs, alco, etc when was a kid. I did try some AI for experiment as always wanted to try it. Did 0.25mg Anastrazole 2x week. And did 0.5mg 2x week. Both times felt nothing at all and maybe felt even worse as had some weird feeling on my eyes and head/skull. So lowering E2 is def out of the window for me. Perhaps doing the opposite and adding in some E2 would help? Fuck knows and only by experimenting we can find out. Yeah smoking fucks it up but I have an opposite effect. When I smoke weed im cool calm and collected and my BP stays low AF. I quit and then shit hits the fan. So def agree that its stress/anxiety related. No coffee for me as well as it winds me up like a damn crackhead...

 

[t_spacemonkey]

Absolutely agree. BP aint no joke. I tried Telmisartan some days ago for 3 days straight and felt like fucking death. Also tried Bystolic/Nebivolol and couldnt even sleep all night. So seems I cant even tolerate these meds at all. TBH I can barely tolerate anything after extensive abuse of drugs, alco, etc when was a kid. I did try some AI for experiment as always wanted to try it. Did 0.25mg Anastrazole 2x week. And did 0.5mg 2x week. Both times felt nothing at all and maybe felt even worse as had some weird feeling on my eyes and head/skull. So lowering E2 is def out of the window for me. Perhaps doing the opposite and adding in some E2 would help? Fuck knows and only by experimenting we can find out. Yeah smoking fucks it up but I have an opposite effect. When I smoke weed im cool calm and collected and my BP stays low AF. I quit and then shit hits the fan. So def agree that its stress/anxiety related. No coffee for me as well as it winds me up like a damn crackhead...

I abused some amphetamines in my 20's. lasted 1y or so. at the time it did not feel like I had health issues, but maybe my brain got oversensitized somehow I don't know. its worth trying different meds for BP. i had massive anxiety/panic with losartan, but no issues with telmisartan. clonidine worked too, but you just feel like shit on it and tired
now with 120mg telmi my BP runs typically 130-140/80-90 which is acceptable to me.
doc wants to add something and typically i don't listen to them, but ordered got an RX for bystolic, which anabolicdoc recommends i believe (he recommend telmisartan too)
weed, specifically indicas also relax me and make me fairly calm, although when work stress is too high, they can send me into a very bad mental state, so i have to make sure stress levels are within reason.
but tbh i think that stress is way under recognized, and what I noticed is that when on PTO typically i can smoke drink and do all kind of shit and i feel calm and great. but this work shit sends me over the top. maybe its time to change job or career, but hard to do when you learned this all life and the job (tech) is remote and pays well over 200k...

 

[Belekas]

I abused some amphetamines in my 20's. lasted 1y or so. at the time it did not feel like I had health issues, but maybe my brain got oversensitized somehow I don't know. its worth trying different meds for BP. i had massive anxiety/panic with losartan, but no issues with telmisartan. clonidine worked too, but you just feel like shit on it and tired
now with 120mg telmi my BP runs typically 130-140/80-90 which is acceptable to me.
doc wants to add something and typically i don't listen to them, but ordered got an RX for bystolic, which anabolicdoc recommends i believe (he recommend telmisartan too)
weed, specifically indicas also relax me and make me fairly calm, although when work stress is too high, they can send me into a very bad mental state, so i have to make sure stress levels are within reason.
but tbh i think that stress is way under recognized, and what I noticed is that when on PTO typically i can smoke drink and do all kind of shit and i feel calm and great. but this work shit sends me over the top. maybe its time to change job or career, but hard to do when you learned this all life and the job (tech) is remote and pays well over 200k...

haha, fuck me mate, ...I also abused amphetamine when I was 13, started at 13 to be precise, also did tons of qualiity pills from Amsterdam and local made and proper amphetamine that was made in local factories, that was being exported to different countries. Did that for years, my bad. That shit was 10x better then the best cocaine you can get here around UK where I am at. I can't event tolerate 1 line of that shit, makes me paranoid, jaw moving like crazy, mind running 100x, etc...and people do that shit line after line and feel absolutely fine lmao I went full circle with all the drugs and shit and cant even tolerate 1 bottle of beer, get hangover after 20 mins basically while still drinking it...so you might be right about brain being messed up or something...The way I felt on BP meds I'm not sure I will ever try again. I have no time to experiment and focus on these things as I have other more serious things to to do and focus on. Spent enough time trying to figure shit out. Yes AnabolicDoc recommended to me Bystolic and Telmisartan...TOok 5mg Bystolic but did generic Nebivolol and all night couldnt sleep...Also 20mg Telmisartan killed me off...got dizzy and felt like I was dying and shit...was a terrible experience...which sucks a bit as I enjoy androgens as well but IIWII and I will do what needs to be done...

My stress is my work/carreer related as well and I need 100% full focus there because I'm a professional but I work with placing calculated bets and all the focus outside my work fucks up my plans and executions and then I feel miserable all day which effects my BP, anxiety even more. Its a vicious cycle but IIWII. It was my choice and I'm chasing and working towards my dream vision. Same as you I can't change because I dedicated my life and myself to beating the game and being in the 1% club a long time ago. So its either ride or die for me. And thats IMHO exactly where the problem is and thus Testosterone is making me overstimulated and overhyped on top of that. So most likely I will have to get off TRT and enjoy my life naturally which I don't mind as I have a great shape even without androgens and look better then 95% in my gym. Not that I care too much but the bodybuilding years are behind me and its time to focus on brain health and congnitive functions going forward.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

haha, fuck me mate, ...I also abused amphetamine when I was 13, started at 13 to be precise, also did tons of qualiity pills from Amsterdam and local made and proper amphetamine that was made in local factories, that was being exported to different countries. Did that for years, my bad. That shit was 10x better then the best cocaine you can get here around UK where I am at. I can't event tolerate 1 line of that shit, makes me paranoid, jaw moving like crazy, mind running 100x, etc...and people do that shit line after line and feel absolutely fine lmao I went full circle with all the drugs and shit and cant even tolerate 1 bottle of beer, get hangover after 20 mins basically while still drinking it...so you might be right about brain being messed up or something...The way I felt on BP meds I'm not sure I will ever try again. I have no time to experiment and focus on these things as I have other more serious things to to do and focus on. Spent enough time trying to figure shit out. Yes AnabolicDoc recommended to me Bystolic and Telmisartan...TOok 5mg Bystolic but did generic Nebivolol and all night couldnt sleep...Also 20mg Telmisartan killed me off...got dizzy and felt like I was dying and shit...was a terrible experience...which sucks a bit as I enjoy androgens as well but IIWII and I will do what needs to be done...

My stress is my work/carreer related as well and I need 100% full focus there because I'm a professional but I work with placing calculated bets and all the focus outside my work fucks up my plans and executions and then I feel miserable all day which effects my BP, anxiety even more. Its a vicious cycle but IIWII. It was my choice and I'm chasing and working towards my dream vision. Same as you I can't change because I dedicated my life and myself to beating the game and being in the 1% club a long time ago. So its either ride or die for me. And thats IMHO exactly where the problem is and thus Testosterone is making me overstimulated and overhyped on top of that. So most likely I will have to get off TRT and enjoy my life naturally which I don't mind as I have a great shape even without androgens and look better then 95% in my gym. Not that I care too much but the bodybuilding years are behind me and its time to focus on brain health and congnitive functions going forward.

yeah....alcohol same for me. i have 1 beer and feel shitty for a week afterwards. a mix of depressed anxious/doom gloomy. i think we abused our systems too much, that with work everything puts you over the top. somehow though I am able to handle T really well. i tried some dextroamphetamine 5mg recently and while I felt ok on it if I smoke weed even at night, 12h past, my mind goes to hell and I can not sleep. so i think some recovery happened in me since then. i'm not sure what I did to recover, i tried tons of supplements, like NMN etc, peptides like BPC157 (said to be brain healing), did a course of Emoxypine (mexidol) which is suppose to reset some thing in the brain as well. but overall I have to be really careful with anything, especially pharma drugs. thats why i typically try will try only short half life substances, cause if it goes south, as it did many times, those effects tend to be short lived.
Maybe look into finding some balance again, whatever that is, lifestyle, diet etc.
I did some soul searching and worked with some counselors to work through past trauma issues, and i think this can also be the key to overall health. for ex. I was able to completely 'cure' my chronic back pain/sciatic pain with those approaches (chronic pain I believe is virtually 100% rooted in emotional health)
I had tech jobs in the past where I was doing absolutely nothing, and still felt like shit, so i am not even sure the type of job/company matters that much. I feel mentally better when I'm challenged, up to a point where I can handle the stress
its a bummer if you would have to give up T completely, as I think bio identical hormones are really good for you, since your body is designed to process them. maybe there is a regimen which will work for you. I assume you tried different esters, dosing, frequencies etc. guy in the video says some guys can do a low test base and add another AAS like nandrolone and that works sometimes

 

[Belekas]

yeah....alcohol same for me. i have 1 beer and feel shitty for a week afterwards. a mix of depressed anxious/doom gloomy. i think we abused our systems too much, that with work everything puts you over the top. somehow though I am able to handle T really well. i tried some dextroamphetamine 5mg recently and while I felt ok on it if I smoke weed even at night, 12h past, my mind goes to hell and I can not sleep. so i think some recovery happened in me since then. i'm not sure what I did to recover, i tried tons of supplements, like NMN etc, peptides like BPC157 (said to be brain healing), did a course of Emoxypine (mexidol) which is suppose to reset some thing in the brain as well. but overall I have to be really careful with anything, especially pharma drugs. thats why i typically try will try only short half life substances, cause if it goes south, as it did many times, those effects tend to be short lived.
Maybe look into finding some balance again, whatever that is, lifestyle, diet etc.
I did some soul searching and worked with some counselors to work through past trauma issues, and i think this can also be the key to overall health. for ex. I was able to completely 'cure' my chronic back pain/sciatic pain with those approaches (chronic pain I believe is virtually 100% rooted in emotional health)
I had tech jobs in the past where I was doing absolutely nothing, and still felt like shit, so i am not even sure the type of job/company matters that much. I feel mentally better when I'm challenged, up to a point where I can handle the stress
its a bummer if you would have to give up T completely, as I think bio identical hormones are really good for you, since your body is designed to process them. maybe there is a regimen which will work for you. I assume you tried different esters, dosing, frequencies etc. guy in the video says some guys can do a low test base and add another AAS like nandrolone and that works sometimes

Yeah def paying the price for all the foolish things done in teenage days and some more. Yeah I've tried tons of stuff as well but will take too long to type and not important. I used to run 250mg test with 250mg deca every year for long periods and never had issues but also I was smoking strongest weed we had morning to evening so that smoothed out the curve. Im from Eastern Europe and back then 10-20 years ago weed was completely different then all this hybrid cali type crap we have now esp here in UK which is a joke and doesnt do shit to me yet they all here pay stupid prices just for taste and white burning ash lmao most will never know what real oldschool proper skunk was, white widow, ak47, grown properly with love that after a few tokes put you on your knees for hours leaving you feeling great and not craving another spliff in 15mins smh These days all thst shit esp street shit is laced with something to make it even more addictive and most of that shit is not potent at all made for you to comeback 10 times to buy more chasing the high which never comes. Hormones are good if you need them but most to be honest never needed them in first place. Its an addiction like everything else. I might try Nandrolone/Deca only HRT next year if I have time and patience to experiment as I have to get it shipped from another country as local pharma grade it gets pricey. This year still some time left so will experiment with TRT maybe more frequent dosing and see if that makes my head work better.

 

[onetwonine]

if you have been on AAS forever you most likely need a much higher dose. barely anyone will feel good on 80mg, but i'm sure there is exception. have you tried 240mg/week? you could try a different ester, i feel amazing on daily 30-40mg daily Tprop, now this is unique to me. check out this vid; he talks about how to manage s/x - pretty insightful info IMO, speaks also how low doses make no sense at all

Ive tried everything from 80 to 1.5grams with various addons lol

No, i dont feel better on 240mg. I dont want to "manage" s/x. Its never sustainable. There is simply no add on thats a silver bullet in my experience.

I'm also aware of buddy in the video. I dont think hes medicating low testosterone, i think hes medicating something else.

Ive been there. Im not anymore

Maybe i should say that though. What do i know. Everybody is different. I hope 40mg prop is something that will work for you long term.

.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

Yeah def paying the price for all the foolish things done in teenage days and some more. Yeah I've tried tons of stuff as well but will take too long to type and not important. I used to run 250mg test with 250mg deca every year for long periods and never had issues but also I was smoking strongest weed we had morning to evening so that smoothed out the curve. Im from Eastern Europe and back then 10-20 years ago weed was completely different then all this hybrid cali type crap we have now esp here in UK which is a joke and doesnt do shit to me yet they all here pay stupid prices just for taste and white burning ash lmao most will never know what real oldschool proper skunk was, white widow, ak47, grown properly with love that after a few tokes put you on your knees for hours leaving you feeling great and not craving another spliff in 15mins smh These days all thst shit esp street shit is laced with something to make it even more addictive and most of that shit is not potent at all made for you to comeback 10 times to buy more chasing the high which never comes. Hormones are good if you need them but most to be honest never needed them in first place. Its an addiction like everything else. I might try Nandrolone/Deca only HRT next year if I have time and patience to experiment as I have to get it shipped from another country as local pharma grade it gets pricey. This year still some time left so will experiment with TRT maybe more frequent dosing and see if that makes my head work better.

Im originally from Poland (not there for like 20years now), grew up in germany for a while, but I do remember smoking street weed like wide widow in poland. i have no idea whats in the uk, but in the usa where this stuff is legal in many states (like AZ where i live) the quality is really good. i would say its equal to the old stuff, and you get a huge variety here. they would go out of business if they would lace and nobody buys stuff of the street.
good luck to your journey. i know for T was a game changer. at 44 now I feel better then in any of my 30's.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

Ive tried everything from 80 to 1.5grams with various addons lol

No, i dont feel better on 240mg.

I'm also aware of buddy in the video. I dont think hes medicating low testosterone, i think hes medicating something else.

Ive been there. Im not anymore.

good luck to your journey. I think the guy in the vid (not danny) is an convicted steroid dealer from the usa. he had a huge UGL and make millions. spend like 7y in prison, and I am surprised that only that short

 

[onetwonine]

good luck to your journey. I think the guy in the vid (not danny) is an convicted steroid dealer from the usa. he had a huge UGL and make millions. spend like 7y in prison, and I am surprised that only that short

Maybe its cause im old now. But do you ever take a step back and say "is this who i want to take medical advice from" ..lol

Im just playing. Its a unique journey for everyone. My labs will be in about 2 months on this protocol.

 

[Belekas]

Im originally from Poland (not there for like 20years now), grew up in germany for a while, but I do remember smoking street weed like wide widow in poland. i have no idea whats in the uk, but in the usa where this stuff is legal in many states (like AZ where i live) the quality is really good. i would say its equal to the old stuff, and you get a huge variety here. they would go out of business if they would lace and nobody buys stuff of the street.
good luck to your journey. i know for T was a game changer. at 44 now I feel better then in any of my 30's.

I'm from Lithuania originally, so we neighbours. Like I said in UK the quality is 3/10 for a smoker like me as I've smoked for close to 30 years. It's a different high because them all buds are hybrids and none like in the good ol days. Ofc you can get good tasting but still hybrids and pay huge prices for them that still after a joint you start to think about another one in 30mins time. Meh. I do like Hollands quality though and here in the UK is nothing even compared to that. So if in the states is similar to the old stuff, grown properly, then its not too bad. I also have serious connects in Holland and they do grow some unbelievable quality even for me with my experience and tolerance level, but that good stuff comes rare because the old seeds are pretty much gone. That shit was phenomenal. I've never been to the states and probably won't ever be so I can't comment on that.

Cheers and good luck to you as well. T or no T life goes. Do widzenia

 

[itsme]

if you have been on AAS forever you most likely need a much higher dose. barely anyone will feel good on 80mg, but i'm sure there is exception. have you tried 240mg/week? you could try a different ester, i feel amazing on daily 30-40mg daily Tprop, now this is unique to me. check out this vid; he talks about how to manage s/x - pretty insightful info IMO, speaks also how low doses make no sense at all

What is your estradiol and hematocrit numbers,please?