3mg Ostarine - only cycle with 50mg DHEA added at the end: blood tests and results

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sammmy

Well-Known Member
I am a 46 yo male, skinny-flabby, HIV positive (undetectable but with immune system that is still not recovered). I go to gym 4-5 days a week but often don't have the energy to finish the workout, muscles remain lame, strength does not increase, have no energy during the day and some fat in face and around navel although I am considered slim. I hope to correct that with anabolics.

I took 3mg Ostarine per day (in the morning with a cup of water) for a month and because it suppressed HDL, I added DHEA in the last 6 days (25mg for two days, 50mg for last 4 days).

All blood tests were done in US by Quest Diagnostics.

Ostarine suppressed HDL but not LDL, worsening the Cholesterol/HDL ratio. Adding DHEA at the end did not improve HDL but lowered LDL and in effect improved the Cholesterol/HDL ratio:

Test

Normal range (male)

Before Ostarine

After 17 days of Ostarine

After 30 days of Ostarine and 6 days of DHEA

HDL (good)

> 40 mg/dL

59

40

39

LDL (bad)

< 100 mg/dL

116

118

82

Total Cholest.

< 200 mg/dL

194

178

140

Total Cholest./HDL

< 5.0

3.3

4.5

3.6

Triglycerides

< 150 mg/dL

91

98

92




As expected the 3mg "low dose" Ostarine partially suppressed all sex hormones, although the free testosterone remained constant. Notice the suppressed SHBG did not lead to higher free testosterone as many people naively expect. Adding DHEA at the end somewhat normalized the Estradiol which may be related to the decrease in LDL above.

Test

Normal range (male)

Before Ostarine

After 17 days of Ostarine

After 30 days of Ostarine and 6 days of DHEA

Testosterone

250 - 1100 ng/dL

940

501

412

Free Test. (dialysis)

35 - 155 pg/mL

85.4

83.1

78.1

Estradiol (ultrasens)

<= 29 pg/mL

typical 33 - 37

11

20

SHBG

10 - 50 nmol/L

typical 65 - 85

29

not measured



Ostarine seems to slightly suppress the red blood cells but DHEA counteracts that (probably related to increasing Estradiol):

Test

Normal range (male)

Before Ostarine

After 17 days of Ostarine

After 30 days of Ostarine and 6 days of DHEA

White Blood Cells

3.8 - 10.8 thousnd/uL

3.8

3.7

3.9

Lymphocytes

850 - 3900 /uL

1740

1892

1852

CD4

490 - 1740 /uL

395

483

452

Red Blood Cells

4.20 - 5.80 million/uL

5.09

4.84

4.98

Hemogolobin

13.2 - 17.1 g/dL

15.5

14.4

15.0

Hematocrit

38.5 - 50 %

44.7

42.6

44.0

Creatinine

0.60 - 1.35 mg/dL

1.24

1.15

1.24

ALP

40 - 115 U/L

typical 53 - 62

44

44

AST

10 - 40 U/L

21

19

18

ALT

9 - 46 U/L

11

12

14



My experience:
Ostarine makes my muscles a little harder and more swollen (pecs, triceps, biceps) and gives me a bit more endurance to finish my workout at the gym but did not give me strength – I did not feel I could increase the weights I lifted. It also seems to help decrease the fat in my face but that is on the boundary of placebo. It does NOT help with fitness recovery – I get sore quadriceps every time after doing squats if I space them more than 3 days apart. It does NOT give me good mood and energy during the day – I have no desire to go to gym, I feel depressed and want to take naps - and it also decreased my libido and orgasmic ability. This is probably connected to suppressed total testosterone and almost crushed estradiol (from 33 to 11 pg/mL), although my free testosterone remained the same.


Adding DHEA in the last 6 days of the cycle increased my strength at the gym (I felt the need to increase weights at gym) and increased my libido and ability to reach orgasm. However, I get headaches from repeated dosing of DHEA and they appeared on the 4th day (2 days at 25mg and 2 days at 50mg). It is not clear if the headaches are from excess estrogen or from DHEA interaction with the HIV medications or HIV itself.

My personal conclusion is that 3mg Ostarine by itself is not worth it because it crused Estradiol and HDL, possibly led to depression, dimished sex drive, and did not improve strength. Ostarine + DHEA is more worth it because the DHEA improves the areas in which Ostarine fails.

I've tried beta-ecdysterone in the past (900mg/day of Cyanotis Vaga extract) and it achieved similar modest swelling of the muscles, without suppressing my hormones, sex drive or mood, while increasing my strength, something that Ostarine by itself could not provide.
 
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Thanks for sharing the interesting data. They suggest ostarine is more HPTA-suppressive than is usually claimed. How does ostarine decrease estradiol by a lot more than the drop in testosterone?
 
I expected that amount of suppression and chose the dose 3mg from this article: The selective androgen receptor modulator GTx-024 (enobosarm) improves lean body mass and physical function in healthy elderly men and postmenopausal women: results of a double-blind, placebo-controlled phase II trial

Sites that sell ostarine (enobosarm) usually downplay the amount of suppression and they suggest way higher doses like 30mg/day. I don't know if taking that will lead to more suppression and more visible results.
 
@madman, would like your input on free testosterone in these data. Equilibrium dialysis results show little variation, implying little HPTA suppression. But Tru-T calculations show a large drop in free T, implying suppression. Which is right?
 
My typical SHBG is way above the normal range for male. From what I've read, online calculators that estimate free testosterone from total testosterone and SHBG are not reliable in cases of high SHBG - these calculators give you something like an average regression line, while a high SHBG may be an outlier and deviate significantly from the average. That is why I do a dialysis blood test for free testosterone hoping that this test actually measures free testosterone instead of doing round about calculations.

I was surprised that my free testosterone remained constant on Ostarine, since I felt that my orgasmic ability and libido diminished which in my case usually correlates with a decrease in the free testosterone. It is also surprising that DHEA improved the libido and orgasmic ability but the free testosterone was even slightly lower which suggests that estrogen may actually play the sexual role that I usually attribute to free testosterone.
 
@madman, would like your input on free testosterone in these data. Equilibrium dialysis results show little variation, implying little HPTA suppression. But Tru-T calculations show a large drop in free T, implying suppression. Which is right?

To me it would seem that seeing as SARMs can have a negative impact on the hpta suppressing natural endogenous production which in his case his TT levels dropped significantly 940--->501--->412 it is odd that his FT levels would stay consistent and although his SHBG dropped a lot 65-85--->29--->?.....his FT levels should have also been lower due to his drastically reduced TT.

He stated....."As expected the 3mg "low dose" Ostarine partially suppressed all sex hormones, although the free testosterone remained constant. Notice the suppressed SHBG did not lead to higher free testosterone as many people naively expect.

Quite the opposite as although his SHBG significantly dropped his TT level also dropped by over 50%.....so his FT level should not remain consistent let alone lead to higher levels as some would tend to think.

Not sure if the ED results are skewed due to the use of the SARM.

His labs show that his TT levels dropped significantly yet his FT stayed the same pre--->post SARM use.....top it off with the fact that he also states....."It does NOT give me good mood and energy during the day – I have no desire to go to gym, I feel depressed and want to take naps - and it also decreased my libido and orgasmic ability. This is probably connected to suppressed total testosterone and almost crushed estradiol (from 33 to 11 pg/mL), although my free testosterone remained the same".

Sure lower E2 can have an big impact on how one feels overall but his labs are showing that his FT levels are just below mid-range.....far from low!

Yet as you stated Tru T is showing a large drop in FT level.
 
My typical SHBG is way above the normal range for male. From what I've read, online calculators that estimate free testosterone from total testosterone and SHBG are not reliable in cases of high SHBG - these calculators give you something like an average regression line, while a high SHBG may be an outlier and deviate significantly from the average. That is why I do a dialysis blood test for free testosterone hoping that this test actually measures free testosterone instead of doing round about calculations.
...
The Tru-T free testosterone calculator is supposed to correct for the problems in the older calculations, and their research shows a good correlation overall with equilibrium dialysis results. But there's a pretty blatant contradiction in your case. I don't have an explanation.

...
Not sure if the ED results are skewed due to the use of the SARM.
...
Thanks for weighing in. You wouldn't think the "gold standard" of free testosterone measurements would be fooled that easily, but I don't know enough to say it's not possible.
 
The Quest Diagnostics test I use is Testosterone, Free (Dialysis) and Total, MS

The test FAQ says:
"Direct measurement of free and bioavailable testosterone is not available, so concentrations are estimated from calculations. Free testosterone is best calculated based on the LC/MS/MS-derived total testosterone and equilibrium dialysis-derived percent free levels.

Alternatively, free testosterone can be calculated based on total testosterone, SHBG, and albumin measurements. Bioavailable testosterone is calculated similarly. This method, however, does not account for estrogens or other compounds that displace testosterone from SHBG.

Using the LC/MS/MS and equilibrium-based dialysis methods, free testosterone is calculated as follows:

Free testosterone = (total testosterone) (% free)
"
 
IMO in men, SARMs are counterproductive. All they do is suppress, very quickly, endogenous testosterone. The anabolic effects will not offset the suppression of endogenous T. Stick with T as a base along with a little N and OX to preserve lean mass. What I've seen from labs in some women that have taken SARMs along with HRT (T) is that the decrease in SHBG will generally result in a doubling of fT. Usually takes their fT% from about 2 to 4%. Interestingly a low dose of a SARMs seems to enhance the effects of HRT (T) in women because it increases fT at a given level of TT by decreasing the SHBG. Overall SARMs are grossly overhyped by the companies that developed them and we know nothing about longer term use in humans and if a female is considering having children, don't even consider SARMs.
 
My personal conclusion is that 3mg Ostarine by itself is not worth it because it crused Estradiol and HDL, possibly led to depression, dimished sex drive, and did not improve strength. Ostarine + DHEA is more worth it because the DHEA improves the areas in which Ostarine fails.

I've tried beta-ecdysterone in the past (900mg/day of Cyanotis Vaga extract) and it achieved similar modest swelling of the muscles, without suppressing my hormones, sex drive or mood, while increasing my strength, something that Ostarine by itself could not provide.
Why are you wasting your time with these compounds if you are HIV+? You can have access to oxandrolone or nandrolone (in the US)
 
First, thank you for all the data you have provided. It is greatly appreciated. The only thing I am weary of is whether the SARMs you got were real or if they were prohormones. SARMs are notorious for being replaced with either nothing or with cheaper anabolics. I am surprised such a low dose affected your test, estrogen, and HDL so much. Ostarine is supposed to not have such a strong effect on those so either that is BS marketing or you got something else instead of Ostarine.
 
Why are you wasting your time with these compounds if you are HIV+? You can have access to oxandrolone or nandrolone (in the US)

Ostarine 3 mg/day is insanely less expensive than Oxandrolone (compounded pharmacy without insurance) and has no androgenic effects like acne, agressions, hair loss etc. It also did not affect my LDL at all, while Oxandrolone will increase it. Also, if you travel, Ostarine is not a regulated drug like Oxandrolone.

I already started a trial of 15mg/day Oxandrolone.
 
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