Reliable way to prevent HDL drop while on cycle and NOT on TRT ?

[sammmy]

I am a 46 yo male on a rather low dose of 3mg Ostarine daily and nothing else. It didn't affect my free testosterone, but decreased by about 30-50% my Total Testosterone, SHBG, and Estradiol. That is not a big deal since my before-ostraine SHBG and Estradiol were rather high for a male and the Testosterone remains in normal range, but Ostarine also dropped my HDL cholesterol from 60 to 40mg/dL.

The decrease in HDL is probably related to the decrease in body-produced estrogen and the fact that Ostarine does not aromatize to estrogen to fill that gap.

Has anyone that is not on a TRT, found a RELIABLE way to increase HDL back by 20 mg/dL while on a cycle?

Could adding HCG or Testosterone increase HDL (by increasing the body estrogen) or they will suppress HDL and estrogen further?

Please share your actual experience, not theories. I know that eating almonds or drinking wine may help but I doubt it would be a 20mg/dL increase in HDL.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I have no effective way to increase HDL while using anabolics. SARMs have the same effect. Any androgens at higher doses can decrease HDL. If you add hCG or testosterone, your HDL will drop even further.

Be careful since Ostarine shuts down your HPT axis just like testosterone and anabolics do.

 

[sammmy]

Yes SARMS do suppress the Hypothalamus/Pituitary even at low doses, no matter what sites that sell them say. My suppression was expected and consistent the values for 3mg dose that I saw in the medical articles.

Has anyone taken DHEA during cycle? Supposedly it does not change testosterone but increases estrogen in males so it might have a positive effect on HDL.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

DHEA is an androgen. It will further decrease HDL even if it increases estradiol (it can also increase DHT).

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

High-dose Niacin seems to help my HDL although I am on TRT. It is worth noting that pharmcologically raising HDL by any means has never been shown to have a clear health benefit as far as I know. HDL may be in the category of being a marker for something else.

 

[DragonBits]

High-dose Niacin seems to help my HDL although I am on TRT. It is worth noting that pharmcologically raising HDL by any means has never been shown to have a clear health benefit as far as I know. HDL may be in the category of being a marker for something else.

It's worth noting that there are five subfractions of HDL. From largest (and most effective in cholesterol removal) to smallest (and least effective), the types are 2a, 2b, 3a, 3b, and 3c.

It's hard to say what type of HDL Niacin increased since like most things connected to the function of our bodies, it's more complex than we want to acknowledge.

High-density lipoprotein - Wikipedia

Eight oz of red wine a night raised my HDL from ~39 > 55. I picked red wine because it was $2.95 a bottle and I like the taste. But I think any kind of alcohol would have the same effect, red wine does have some resveratrol in it, though resveratrol isn't proven to be heart protective while alcohol is.

I can't say that TRT (nebido) actually lowered HDL, it seemed to be the same at ~39.

Recently my HDL was 62, maybe it went up because I drank more, or maybe because I was taking nac n acetyl cysteine.

Moderate consumption of Alcohol (any kind) has been well established as being heart protective.

Moderate alcohol consumption and coronary heart disease: a review

 

[kassad]

Ostarine is worse on HDL than oxandrolone in everyone I've seen. If you are adamant on running SARMS then switching over from Ostarine to RAD-140 is kinder on HDL according to Dr Rand Mcclain (he is still no fan of SARMs).

Some running oral only anabolic cycles also see an alleviation of HDL lowering from running a low dose clomid on cycle on their bloodtests (hypotized to be because of increased E2 production and the zuclomiphene component working together, but is NOT working for everyone).

 

[Jason Sypolt]

Why the choice of a SARM over anabolic?

When I'm on Oxandrolone or Stanozolol I take fish oil and Niacin IR. I hate the Niacin - it makes me feel (and look) like I have a severe sunburn for an hour every time I take it, even with asprin. I also take NAC daily. I can keep my HDL around 40 with those supplements. Without them, Oxandrolone knocks my HDL down to undetectable levels.

 

[Wilson7]

IMO, decreases in HDL as a function of androgens or SARMs is not the same as having an endogenously low HDL or dysfunctional reverse cholesterol transfer system with high HDL. Increasing HDL by pharmacologic means (niacin for example) has not resulting in meaningful decreases in CAD risk, guys on ADT have increased HDL but also increased risk of CAD. Why then are we concerned with decreases in HDL from androgens or SARMs? I think the decrease in HDL is not clinically meaningful, within reason (20 - 30% decrease or temporary decreases associated with a 12 week cycle of a SARM or OX). If you look at the lit in patients with hereditary angioedema on stanazolol (low doses) for up to 30 years, they have no increased incidence of CAD. 1 - 2 mg/d of stanazolol will still hammer your HDL, so why aren't they dropping from CAD? Read the discussion part of this article. The Safety, Pharmacokinetics, and Effects of LGD-4033, a Novel Nonsteroidal Oral, Selective Androgen Receptor Modulator, in Healthy Young Men

 

[Jason Sypolt]

IMO, decreases in HDL as a function of androgens or SARMs is not the same as having an endogenously low HDL or dysfunctional reverse cholesterol transfer system with high HDL. Increasing HDL by pharmacologic means (niacin for example) has not resulting in meaningful decreases in CAD risk, guys on ADT have increased HDL but also increased risk of CAD. Why then are we concerned with decreases in HDL from androgens or SARMs? I think the decrease in HDL is not clinically meaningful, within reason (20 - 30% decrease or temporary decreases associated with a 12 week cycle of a SARM or OX). If you look at the lit in patients with hereditary angioedema on stanazolol (low doses) for up to 30 years, they have no increased incidence of CAD. 1 - 2 mg/d of stanazolol will still hammer your HDL, so why aren't they dropping from CAD? Read the discussion part of this article. The Safety, Pharmacokinetics, and Effects of LGD-4033, a Novel Nonsteroidal Oral, Selective Androgen Receptor Modulator, in Healthy Young Men

Totally valid point in my mind and I either don't know enough about the subject or haven't seen enough data (or both) to be able to answer well except that I think it's simply due to fear over "low HDL" because that's bad and increases plaque in arteries further advancing atherosclerosis among other things.

So for what it's worth, I have some family with cardiovascular disease. My HDL was under 12 for about 3 months which the RN at the time said was the bottom of the detectable range of the device used to measure it. It was at a health fair for my employer at the time and I was in my mid-30's. You should have seen the look on her face.

I've not had a proper coronary calcium CT, but have checked biomarkers such as homocysteine and hs-CRP which appear to be stellar.

So short term measured in weeks to months that corroborates what you're saying (I could just be lucky too) the body can either bounce back or that is not enough time for damage to start unless you have existing underlying health issues.

I would like to stay on a low dose of Oxandrolone long-term if possible. I may discuss that with my provider. I've taken it several times for 90 days and I lost just a small amount of abdominal fat at 25ng QD, but subjectively I felt incredible up until about a week after I stopped taking it.

 

[Wilson7]

I wouldn't stay on any C-17 oral continuously. Maybe 12 weeks on and 8 - 12 weeks off and always sub-lingual with the orals, not more than 10 mg/d. Best way to get to that answer is ask your doc to order a CT angiogram. If your score comes back zero, then you have the answer to the HDL question, for you. My HDL has always been in the 35 - 45 range, CT angiogram and Ca score was zero at age 61. Oxandrolone over stanazolol esp longer term. I haven't seen a case report of serious hepatic injury or carcinoma with oxandrolone, there are case reports with stanazolol however. If you use orals, then a liver US every 1 - 2 years is not a bad idea. Only LGD 4033 has not been shown to elevate LFTs in clinical dosing, osterine has. We just don't know enough about SARMs long term, OX and WIN have years of clinical data, and are far more potent anabolic agents than any SARM.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

ask your doc to order a CT angiogram. If your score comes back zero, then you have the answer to the HDL question,

While I disagree with Peter Attia on a number of things, I think something he makes a valid point on is that Calcium scans reflect fairly late stage CVD, so just because you get a good score, especially for a younger person, that does not at all mean that you are not at risk. A plaque may have existed for years before it starts to calcify.

Jason, what benefit are you experiencing from Oxandrolone that you want to retain? There may be other options that are not as harsh on HDL. I agree that low HDL is not necessarily a risk, however the body had it there for something so I agree it would be nice to keep some around.

 

[kassad]

I perfectly agree with the short term lowering of HDL being not necessarily dangerous regarding CVDs.

In my experience however the LH and HDL suppressing effects of 20mg of oxandrolone/day can be nicely countered by the addition of 25mg clomid EOD. Just to clarify I have seen this work in 3 guys and seen it not to work in 1 (it did up the LH, but failed to change TotalT or HDL).

 

[Wilson7]

K,

The only issue with Clomid is it will tank your GH/IGF-I. 25 mg EOD, perhaps not as much as 50 mg/d, but worth having IGF-1 measured before and during Clomid use. At 50 mg/d 40-50% decrease in IGF-I is not uncommon.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Another option is to use an intermittent lower dose if one is set on oxandrolone. 10mg right before your two or three hardest workouts each week might give the best of both worlds, combined with a low dose of caffeine to help absorption.

 

[kassad]

Wilson7,

I was aware that clomid reduces IGF-1 in women, and I was aware that Tamoxifen (nolva) reduces it in men, which is one of the reasons Clomid use is preferred to Tamoxifen in men (besides Clomid also being stronger in HPTA boosting capabilities).

Do you have any studies or experience that shows that clomid decreases IGF-1 in men?

Thanks,

 

[sammmy]

Eight oz of red wine a night raised my HDL from ~39 > 55. I picked red wine because it was $2.95 a bottle and I like the taste. But I think any kind of alcohol would have the same effect, red wine does have some resveratrol in it, though resveratrol isn't proven to be heart protective while alcohol is.

I can't say that TRT (nebido) actually lowered HDL, it seemed to be the same at ~39.

I wonder if drinking the same amount of red grape juice will have the same effect of raising HDL? Or drinking vodka instead of red wine? That can potentially differentiate between effects of polyphenols and alcohol.

 

[sammmy]

I added to my 3mg Ostarine cycle, DHEA for 6 days (2 days of 25mg/day, 4 days of 50mg/day).

DHEA did not increase HDL but substantially decreased LDL, in effect improving the Cholesterol/HDL ratio.

I like DHEA a lot because it gives me energy, strength, and sex drive but I cannot take it constantly - gives me headaches after a few repeated doses.

If you want to see the blood test values: 3mg Ostarine - only cycle with 50mg DHEA added at the end: blood tests and results

 

[kassad]

This one is interesting:
American Urological Association

Note that Torem has a warning for causing QT prolongation and potentially fatal torsades de pointes, so it would be smart to get an ECG and check if one takes any meds that cause QT prolongation before just jumping on it.

It's also interesting that it lowered TT in this particular case, although it - just like clomid or nolva - increases LH and Total T when no exogenous T is present.