Brain health with trt, missed sleep

[FunkOdyssey]

Where did you read about this?

I have to give @madman credit for posting the inverted U cognition study. The effects of testosterone increasing dopamine in the limbic system are more well known, so I don't remember where I came by that. You can just ask chatGPT about it for more info and studies.

 

[dirkdigglr]

Another thing I think I observed with adhd stimulants and that might be similar with androgens:
I was wondering if, when you increase androgens or stimulants, and by that you get a kind of mood-lifting, drive-boosting effect, this could actually help long-term memory consolidation, but at the same time kind of overshadow less optimal executive functioning.

So basically, while you’re in that heightened state, you might not think as clearly or make the best decisions, but the things you experience or learn stick better. Then the next day, because more stuff has already been transferred into long-term memory, your working memory doesn’t have to carry as much load — which might make you feel mentally lighter or more focused again.

ChatGPT says...

Short answer: yes—elevating arousal with stimulants and (to a lesser extent, acutely) androgens can boost consolidation of what you learned, while at the same time pushing prefrontal “control” circuits past their sweet spot so planning/set-shifting get sloppier. The mechanisms line up with what you’re guessing.


Here’s the tight model:

• Stimulants → better encoding/consolidation, but fragile sleep/executive control. Moderate doses of methylphenidate/amphetamine can improve declarative memory consolidation and attention in the short term—partly via norepinephrine’s role in tagging synapses for “save to LTM.” Beta-adrenergic blockade (e.g., propranolol) reduces emotional memory, which is the mirror image of this effect. But stimulants also disrupt nocturnal sleep and can blunt the normal sleep-dependent performance gains; when sleep is impaired, next-day 24-h retention can drop. And for prefrontal cortex, dopamine follows an inverted-U: push DA too high and working memory/cognitive control degrade even as consolidation markers look good. PMC+4PMC+4PMC+4
• Androgens → hippocampal plasticity signals up; human cognition effects are mixed. In animals, T/DHT increase dendritic spines, PSD-95/AMPA expression, and LTP-like plasticity in hippocampus; DHT can improve hippocampal tasks. Human trials on testosterone and global cognition are inconsistent, but mechanistically it’s plausible that higher AR signaling (and sometimes local aromatization to E2) nudges consolidation pathways. There are also interactions with cortisol: memory effects of T can flip sign depending on stress hormone levels. ResearchGate+5PMC+5PMC+5
• Why the “good LTM / worse EF” split happens. Consolidation benefits from arousal neuromodulators (NE/DA, glucocorticoids) that strengthen synapses after salient events; executive functions rely on finely tuned prefrontal DA (especially D1). It’s easy to be on the rising limb for hippocampal consolidation while already tipping over the peak for PFC control—so you remember more tomorrow but feel more impulsive, distractible, or rigid today. PMC+2PNAS+2

Practical takeaways (evidence-aligned):

1. Dose to the lowest effective and avoid stacking multiple arousal drivers at once (e.g., high stimulant + high T + high stress). This reduces the risk of overshooting the PFC inverted-U. PMC
2. Protect sleep on any day you care about tomorrow’s retention (front-load stimulants; avoid late dosing). Sleep loss can erase the consolidation advantage. ScienceDirect
3. Time your learning: pair encoding with moderate arousal (even mild exercise helps androgenic/neuromodulatory tone) and then prioritize a clean night’s sleep. PNAS
4. Watch mood-salience bias: elevated mood can skew what gets tagged as “important,” strengthening some memories but narrowing cognitive flexibility; don’t judge “strategy quality” while amped—review plans later when baseline. PMC
5. If using exogenous androgens: the cognitive upside is mainly mechanistic/animal-based; human effects are variable. Keep an eye on sleep, blood pressure, and E2 balance, and remember cortisol context can modulate outcomes. ekjcg.org+1

Net: your hypothesis—better next-day LTM with a trade-off in same-day executive control—fits the literature. If you want, I can help you design a simple AB protocol (dose timing × sleep × task battery: N-back/set-shifting vs. paired-associate recall) to test where your inverted-U sits.

 

[dirkdigglr]

Each domain peaks at slightly different arousal levels, so looking at multiple gives you the shape.​

• Working memory → how well PFC holds and manipulates info
• Cognitive flexibility → how easily you switch sets or update rules
• Sustained attention → focus stability
• Motivation & fatigue → subjective arousal and reward drive
• Memory consolidation → how much sticks after 24 h

Different brain systems peak at different arousal levels — there isn’t one universal “sweet spot.”


Prefrontal Cortex (Executive Control)

• Handles working memory, inhibition, planning.
• Follows a tight inverted-U for dopamine/noradrenaline.
• Too low → distractible; too high → impulsive, rigid.
  Peaks at moderate arousal.

Striatum (Motivation / Drive)

• Boosts goal-directed energy and reward sensitivity.
• Rises almost linearly until you get restless or risky.
  Peaks at higher arousal than PFC → you can feel “on fire” while control already drops.

Hippocampus (Memory Consolidation)

• Moderate arousal strengthens memory tagging (NE + cortisol).
• Too high → stress impairs contextual encoding.
  Peaks at moderate-high arousal.

Sensorimotor / Reaction Systems

• Speed and alertness rise with arousal until fatigue/jitter.
  Peaks at high arousal.

Sleep & Consolidation

• Needs low arousal; stimulants that cut REM/deep sleep erase gains.

So: motivation lasts longer than executive control, and feeling sharp ≠ being sharp once you’ve passed your PFC’s sweet spot.

 

[Fernando Almaguer]

Each domain peaks at slightly different arousal levels, so looking at multiple gives you the shape.​

• Working memory → how well PFC holds and manipulates info
• Cognitive flexibility → how easily you switch sets or update rules
• Sustained attention → focus stability
• Motivation & fatigue → subjective arousal and reward drive
• Memory consolidation → how much sticks after 24 h

Different brain systems peak at different arousal levels — there isn’t one universal “sweet spot.”


Prefrontal Cortex (Executive Control)

• Handles working memory, inhibition, planning.
• Follows a tight inverted-U for dopamine/noradrenaline.
• Too low → distractible; too high → impulsive, rigid.
  Peaks at moderate arousal.

Striatum (Motivation / Drive)

• Boosts goal-directed energy and reward sensitivity.
• Rises almost linearly until you get restless or risky.
  Peaks at higher arousal than PFC → you can feel “on fire” while control already drops.

Hippocampus (Memory Consolidation)

• Moderate arousal strengthens memory tagging (NE + cortisol).
• Too high → stress impairs contextual encoding.
  Peaks at moderate-high arousal.

Sensorimotor / Reaction Systems

• Speed and alertness rise with arousal until fatigue/jitter.
  Peaks at high arousal.

Sleep & Consolidation

• Needs low arousal; stimulants that cut REM/deep sleep erase gains.

So: motivation lasts longer than executive control, and feeling sharp ≠ being sharp once you’ve passed your PFC’s sweet spot.

So TRT makes us dumber ( at doses too high) is that what y'all are putting out?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

So TRT makes us dumber ( at doses too high) is that what y'all are putting out?

Yes. There's some real neuroscience underpinning the meathead gym bro stereotype.

 

[Boogieman]

I (m, 37) take 20mg testosterone proprionate IM and 150 IU Hcg IM.

I sometimes noticed under certain circumstances e.g. while travelling, that when I missed some sleep then the next day I didnt sleep really much more. And I just can go on and still look the same and dont feel too much tired or something.

I read about studies that showed that users of steroids had markers of brain damage that were comparable to cocaine etc users. Dopamine system and so on.

Does the brain clean and repair itself even while awake or will this accumulate damage at this dosages with sleep deprivation?

In my experience it seems to hinder memory consolidation at least. Wondering if this will damage hippocampus or other areas of the brain. It seems quite deceptive as the body seems looking fresh and the mind has energy still.

Are there any crucial supplements? I take NAC, NMR, Vit D, Vit C, B6, B12, Kreatine, Omega3, 1mg of melatonin. Maybe vitamin E missing?

I heard good stories about methylene blue, microdosing psychedelics for increasing bdnf and high doses of melatonin.

Also lots of proteins seem to help with sleep deprivation.

Any other harm reduction advices?

Have you had blood work done?

I found that 10 mg prop daily took me to same levels as 17.5mg cyp daily (top of range, labs drawn pre shot), so at 20mg prop depending on how you respond you could be well off the scale.

And yes definitely I find TRT allows me to operate on minimal sleep but I imagine this is bad for my brain.

 

[Fernando Almaguer]

Yes. There's some real neuroscience underpinning the meathead gym bro stereotype.

T just below or slightly above refererancr ranges should be okay?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

T just below or slightly above refererancr ranges should be okay?

I don't think there's any way to predict what levels will produce optimal cognitive function for a given individual. I would suggest experimenting with different levels and see how you feel. Once you are aware that testosterone can affect cognition and are looking for that effect, I think it becomes pretty easy to notice.