Brain health with trt, missed sleep

[dirkdigglr]

I (m, 37) take 20mg testosterone proprionate IM and 150 IU Hcg IM.

I sometimes noticed under certain circumstances e.g. while travelling, that when I missed some sleep then the next day I didnt sleep really much more. And I just can go on and still look the same and dont feel too much tired or something.

I read about studies that showed that users of steroids had markers of brain damage that were comparable to cocaine etc users. Dopamine system and so on.

Does the brain clean and repair itself even while awake or will this accumulate damage at this dosages with sleep deprivation?

In my experience it seems to hinder memory consolidation at least. Wondering if this will damage hippocampus or other areas of the brain. It seems quite deceptive as the body seems looking fresh and the mind has energy still.

Are there any crucial supplements? I take NAC, NMR, Vit D, Vit C, B6, B12, Kreatine, Omega3, 1mg of melatonin. Maybe vitamin E missing?

I heard good stories about methylene blue, microdosing psychedelics for increasing bdnf and high doses of melatonin.

Also lots of proteins seem to help with sleep deprivation.

Any other harm reduction advices?

 

[Vince]

I (m, 37) take 20mg testosterone proprionate IM and 150 IU Hcg IM.

I noticed while travelling, that when I missed a night of sleep then the next day I didnt sleep much more. And I just can go on and still look the same and not much tired or something.

I read about studies that showed that users of steroids had markers of brain damage that were comparable to cocaine etc users. Dopamine system and so on.

Does the brain clean and repair itself even while awake or will this accumulate damage at this dosages with sleep deprivation?

In my experience it seems to hinder memory consolidation at least. Wondering if this will damage hippocampus or other areas of the brain. It seems quite deceptive as the body seems looking fresh and the mind has energy still.

Are there any crucial supplements? I take NAC, NMR, Vit D, Vit C, B6, B12, Kreatine, Omega3, 1mg of melatonin. Maybe vitamin E missing?

I heard good stories about methylene blue, microdosing psychedelics for increasing bdnf and high doses of melatonin.

Also lots of proteins seem to help with sleep deprivation.

Any other harm reduction advices?

My advice. Don't use Anabolic steroids.

 

[Systemlord]

I find that when my ferritin levels are low I don’t sleep well and considering TRT lowers ferritin….

 

[dirkdigglr]

My advice. Don't use Anabolic steroids.

what is your reasoning behind this?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I (m, 37) take 20mg testosterone proprionate IM and 150 IU Hcg IM.

Run labs at peak (~5-6 hours after injection) and trough. I think you will find your peak is obscenely high on this protocol. I find my cognitive function is absolute trash with a free T in the 40's ng/dL, and that's likely where you are, if not higher.

I'm running 13 mg test prop daily right now and I switched from MCT to grapeseed for whatever effect that has on slowing the release rate. I suspect it is significant but will verify with labs soon and compare to MCT.

 

[dirkdigglr]

Run labs at peak (~5-6 hours after injection) and trough. I think you will find your peak is obscenely high on this protocol. I find my cognitive function is absolute trash with a free T in the 40's ng/dL, and that's likely where you are, if not higher.

How did you notice worse cognitive function? Would you say this applies to everyone, and that people might be engaging in self-deception if they claim otherwise?


I was diagnosed with ADHD and switched from stimulant medication to TRT. I’ve noticed that testosterone propionate feels like an improved version of a stimulant, probably because it works on a deeper level than typical stimulants do.


With propionate, I’ve experienced much greater mental endurance, faster reading, and little to no rumination. I also find myself enjoying reading in the evenings now. That said, I’m not sure at what point people might start deceiving themselves about the effects.


I’ve also noticed that anything else that boosts dopamine feels like an overload while I’m on TRT and tends to cause sleep issues. While traveling on a road trip, I drank and smoked on occasion with others and noticed I had much more energy, possibly because the effects were potentiated.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

How did you notice worse cognitive function?

Can't think clearly, can't maintain a train of thought or hold much information in mind for long (impaired working memory), planning anything is difficult, can't focus very well, frequently forget what I am doing at work when I switch between different parts of a task (working memory again). It is most obvious at work where your output provides some objective evidence of how well you are functioning. I wouldn't necessarily notice on a weekend day at home or if I were doing physical labor.

Would you say this applies to everyone, and that people might be engaging in self-deception if they claim otherwise?

Every individual differs in terms of where the threshold is, but I am pretty confident that for everyone a threshold does exist, where their cognitive function is worsened when they exceed it. Madman has linked this study before which I think provides an explanation for these effects:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306452224003063

I was diagnosed with ADHD and switched from stimulant medication to TRT. I’ve noticed that testosterone propionate feels like an improved version of a stimulant, probably because it works on a deeper level than typical stimulants do.

Some of the improvement you're seeing is likely just recovery from the adaptations that occurred as a result of the stimulant, including increased dopamine transporters and reduced dopamine receptor sensitivity, which worsen your baseline level of function. I was also diagnosed with ADHD, but fortunately I never took stimulants for long enough to do much damage as they were so difficult for me to tolerate.

You may find this an interesting read, which will discourage you from ever touching a stimulant drug again: Amazon.com: ADHD is Not an Illness and Ritalin is Not a Cure: A Comprehensive Rebuttal of the (alleged) Scientific Consensus eBook : Yaakov Ophir: Kindle Store

With propionate, I’ve experienced much greater mental endurance, faster reading, and little to no rumination. I also find myself enjoying reading in the evenings now. That said, I’m not sure at what point people might start deceiving themselves about the effects.

Awesome, glad it's working well for you.

 

[Vince]

My advice. Don't use Anabolic steroids.

If it causes you sleeping issues, skip the Anabolic. I would just used testosterone.

 

[dirkdigglr]

If it causes you sleeping issues, skip the Anabolic. I would just used testosterone.

ah ok. I use testosterone propionate and hcg. so is testosterone propionate actually anabolic steroid or not?

Can't think clearly, can't maintain a train of thought or hold much information in mind for long (impaired working memory), planning anything is difficult, can't focus very well, frequently forget what I am doing at work when I switch between different parts of a task (working memory again). It is most obvious at work where your output provides some objective evidence of how well you are functioning. I wouldn't necessarily notice on a weekend day at home or if I were doing physical labor.


Every individual differs in terms of where the threshold is, but I am pretty confident that for everyone a threshold does exist, where their cognitive function is worsened when they exceed it. Madman has linked this study before which I think provides an explanation for these effects:

View attachment 52892

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306452224003063

Some of the improvement you're seeing is likely just recovery from the adaptations that occurred as a result of the stimulant, including increased dopamine transporters and reduced dopamine receptor sensitivity, which worsen your baseline level of function. I was also diagnosed with ADHD, but fortunately I never took stimulants for long enough to do much damage as they were so difficult for me to tolerate.

You may find this an interesting read, which will discourage you from ever touching a stimulant drug again: Amazon.com: ADHD is Not an Illness and Ritalin is Not a Cure: A Comprehensive Rebuttal of the (alleged) Scientific Consensus eBook : Yaakov Ophir: Kindle Store



Awesome, glad it's working well for you.

yeah, bell shaped too little and too much...
does anybody have the full study? can't access it over sci hub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306452224003063

how would you describe the effects stimulants had on you?

thx for the book.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

how would you describe the effects stimulants had on you?

Euphoric when they first kick in, and ability to concentrate is enhanced for several hours. Strong dysphoria develops during the evening crash, with exaggerated ADHD symptoms (worse than baseline), and severely impaired ability to sleep. Heart rate and blood pressure are increased also. The combined effects feel very unhealthy, both mentally and physically.

 

[Vince]

ah ok. I use testosterone propionate and hcg. so is testosterone propionate actually steroid or not?



yeah, bell shaped too little and too much...
does anybody have the full study? can't access it over sci hub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306452224003063

how would you describe the effects stimulants had on you?

thx for the book.

Yes, testosterone propionate is an anabolic-androgenic steroid (AAS). Usually when someone says Anabolic, I think of bodybuilding and abusing drug.

 

[madman]

Can't think clearly, can't maintain a train of thought or hold much information in mind for long (impaired working memory), planning anything is difficult, can't focus very well, frequently forget what I am doing at work when I switch between different parts of a task (working memory again). It is most obvious at work where your output provides some objective evidence of how well you are functioning. I wouldn't necessarily notice on a weekend day at home or if I were doing physical labor.


Every individual differs in terms of where the threshold is, but I am pretty confident that for everyone a threshold does exist, where their cognitive function is worsened when they exceed it. Madman has linked this study before which I think provides an explanation for these effects:

View attachment 52892

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306452224003063

Some of the improvement you're seeing is likely just recovery from the adaptations that occurred as a result of the stimulant, including increased dopamine transporters and reduced dopamine receptor sensitivity, which worsen your baseline level of function. I was also diagnosed with ADHD, but fortunately I never took stimulants for long enough to do much damage as they were so difficult for me to tolerate.

You may find this an interesting read, which will discourage you from ever touching a stimulant drug again: Amazon.com: ADHD is Not an Illness and Ritalin is Not a Cure: A Comprehensive Rebuttal of the (alleged) Scientific Consensus eBook : Yaakov Ophir: Kindle Store



Awesome, glad it's working well for you.

Guess you found that one eh?

LOL!

You would mean he was the one that started a thread posting the study before anyone even had a clue.

Give the poor chap something to chew on here!

Thread 'Androgen modulation of mesoprefrontal dopamine systems and the effects of these actions on the adult male brain'

Jul 13, 2024

Again would tread lightly on how high you run your trough/steady-state FT level!

This can easily backfire in the long-run for many especially when it comes to mood, libido and erectile function!

Too high a FT level can be just as bad in many ways as having too low a FT level.

Libido starts in the brain.

Neurotransmitters have a big impact especially dopamine.

There is a fine balance here when it comes to the dopamine system!

This is key here..... dopamine circuits are powerfully regulated by androgens!




*dopamine circuits are powerfully regulated by androgens...

• madman
• dopamine; testosterone; ar; cognition
• Replies: 12
• Forum: Testosterone and Men's Health Articles

• 

 

[Pnw0031]

Run labs at peak (~5-6 hours after injection) and trough. I think you will find your peak is obscenely high on this protocol. I find my cognitive function is absolute trash with a free T in the 40's ng/dL, and that's likely where you are, if not higher.

I'm running 13 mg test prop daily right now and I switched from MCT to grapeseed for whatever effect that has on slowing the release rate. I suspect it is significant but will verify with labs soon and compare to MCT.

Are you running regular prop or solvent free? I’m still on solvent free, jumped to 17mg daily

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Are you running regular prop or solvent free? I’m still on solvent free, jumped to 17mg daily

Regular prop in grapeseed oil.

 

[dirkdigglr]

I find that when my ferritin levels are low I don’t sleep well and considering TRT lowers ferritin….

any idea why is that?

 

[dirkdigglr]

Euphoric when they first kick in, and ability to concentrate is enhanced for several hours. Strong dysphoria develops the evening crash, with exaggerated ADHD symptoms (worse than baseline), and severely impaired ability to sleep. Heart rate and blood pressure are increased also. The combined effects feel very unhealthy, both mentally and physically.

Yeah, that’s basically the side-effect profile of therapeutic stimulants, I’d say. I’ve taken them on and off for quite a long time.

How would you compare testosterone propionate with that?


I haven’t tried cypionate yet — only test base and propionate.
I think I’m kind of looking for that little kick and drive. Compared to ADHD stimulants, propionate feels better — more natural.

But I’m not sure if the bigger difference between peak and trough is actually good. I’ve been thinking about blending cyp and prop so the difference would be around 20%.


Also noticed that while on 20 mg prop with 150 IU HCG, when I’m working at the computer I start feeling this need to do something intense, like CrossFit — otherwise I get side effects from the sympathetic activation.

Not exactly sure what I’m looking for here or how to balance it… basically it’s drive, activation, energy — in a syringe and how its achievable otherwise.
Also not sure how good working memory and focus are under it right now.


If I stayed on this for a couple of months and then reduced the dosage — how long would it take for dopamine and other brain circuits to revert?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Yeah, that’s basically the side-effect profile of therapeutic stimulants, I’d say. I’ve taken them on and off for quite a long time.

How would you compare testosterone propionate with that?

There's some similarity in the effect on energy and mood (both increase with increasing testosterone serum levels, up to a point), but not focus / executive function, which as mentioned elsewhere is only optimized by the mid-range levels of an inverted U before it declines with increasing testosterone.

After awhile, you build some tolerance to the acute energy and mood effects with testosterone and mostly stop noticing them. If you were hypogonadal before, your long-term energy and mood will be sustainably better than it was, but even then, the obvious stimulation and mood changes that follow each injection in the beginning tend to disappear. There seem to be homeostatic mechanisms that smooth out the perception of these effects, and your mood and energy across the day stop tracking diurnal changes in serum levels of hormones as closely as they did in the beginning.

I haven’t tried cypionate yet — only test base and propionate.

If you will be on TRT long-term, then you should try it. You want to try everything, within reason, to determine what works best for you.

But I’m not sure if the bigger difference between peak and trough is actually good. I’ve been thinking about blending cyp and prop so the difference would be around 20%.

There are pros and cons that you will observe between stable vs fluctuating levels, some universal (high stable levels are more anabolic), some nearly universal (lower levels at night on fluctuating protocols produce better sleep), some that may or may not occur depending on the individual (better libido with fluctuation, feeling more grounded/stable with stable levels, feeling like a lifeless zombie with stable levels).

If you want to move a little bit on the spectrum towards more stability you can switch from MCT oil to GSO as your carrier for prop. I find GSO prop is a good sweet spot for me while MCT is too peaky. I have yet to confirm the pharmacokinetic difference with labs, but this is my subjective experience, and we do have some evidence of different release rates depending on oil viscosity.

Also noticed that while on 20 mg prop with 150 IU HCG, when I’m working at the computer I start feeling this need to do something intense, like CrossFit — otherwise I get side effects from the sympathetic activation.

This should go away in time, at least to some degree (see above on stimulating effects). If not, or if not sufficiently, dose may be too high for you. This protocol (20 mg prop daily) will produce very supraphysiologic levels and will be too much for many people.

If I stayed on this for a couple of months and then reduced the dosage — how long would it take for dopamine and other brain circuits to revert?

I think for most people, most of that adjustment takes just a few weeks, and maybe the last 20% takes a bit longer. This is pretty individual though. You have people who drop from 500 mg cycles down to 100-150 mg and barely notice any difference, and others who reduce their dose just 20 mg from 100 mg to 80 mg and are debilitated by this change for many weeks.