New to TRT. Received first labs. Concerned and need help.

Questions:

Why would my Total Testosterone only go up slightly while my Free shot up drastically? My previous Free Test was about 10. It's now almost 32. My previous Free % was 2.3. It's now 4.7. That's at 100mg/week of test cyp. Is that big of an increase at a low dose a bad sign?
Forgot to mention, This is meant for ME/CFS, but I think it's a really good comprehensive fatigue workup in general.

Also, to you original question, If it were me, I'd would give it 3 more months and see if it drops. Your hematocrit is fine, but if it's going to be in the back of your mind and bother you then it might be best to drop it to something like 90mg/week for piece of mind.

Speaking of mind, adding hCG at 500IU twice a week knocked a fair bit off my brain fog. Not a complete fix, but it helped enough that I'm continuing it while I'm waiting to see other specialists.
 
Sparky's comments remind me that intestinal permeability (leaky gut) could be at play here too. There are tests for that (LPS?) but it seems better to just follow a protocol that would cure/prevent the leaky gut, such as Dr. Gundry's Gut Check protocol.
 
Some comments in no particular order.

- Your Vitamin D reminds me that there are apparently some infections that use the Vitamin D receptor as an entryway into cells, and for those infections Vitamin D can make actually make things worse. Dr. Michael Ruscio (who you should also look into) did a whole podcast on that years ago. I'm a big beleiver in Vitamin D levels above 50, but you might stops the supps for a couple of weeks and see if you notice anything better. That would be a clue that you have a related infection although that is by no means definitive.
- It is well-known that endurance exercise that goes beyond an hour or so IIRC weakens the Innate immune system for a few days. I think one of the main researchers on that topic is from NC State.
- While I am not an endurance athlete, I follow some people who are and many of them stress that most people tend to train at too high of a level. The Maffetone Method is focused on that topic, or as Mark Sisson says, make your short hard workouts shorter and harder, and your long easy workout longer and easier. I think Brad Kearns wrote a book about his issues going into the runner's version of overtraining which somewhat overlap with your issues.
- The types of Doc's I mentioned should be very familiar with thyroid issues, but it is another topic with a lot of nuance and unreliable testing that doesn't correlate with symptoms. I've forgotten what the "right " thyroid tests are, but it's not TSH, and at some point experimentation may be in order if nothing else has worked.
- Testosterone is kind of a "sledgehammer" brute-force treatment which is often appropriate, but there are a lot of other issues that can require a lot more digging.
- As Chris Masterjohn has pointed out, there are enough conditions that are considered "rare" that having a rare condition is actually not all that rare.
Yes, I agree. Over exertion definitely lowers immunity in my experience and can cause ongoing symptoms. Unfortunately, I used to do that quite often. But, I now train at a much lighter level and I feel worse than I did back then.

I know some of it is aging. But, I know that something is off in me. I have always eaten well, stayed hydrated, worked out, got enough sleep, etc. I have taken care of myself my whole life. The drop off in energy, motivation, focus, etc. was drastic from the man I used to be. Drastic. I have to keep searching.

This thread alone has given me new areas to explore and for that, I am very thankful. Thank you to everyone!
 
I'm not sure what you're referring to. I don't recall even expressing an opinion on the prevalence of this side effect. I did tell you that TRT had the opposite effect on me, with higher doses being somewhat sedating and demotivating.

The side effects of excessive testosterone that I've discussed include raised HCT, sleep impairment, poor lipids, reduced libido, minor thyroid dysfunction, and degraded sexual function including penile insensitivity, ED, PE, and DE.
To my surprise, TRT has calmed me down. Nice side effect.
 
Post exertional malaise is usually what distinguishes ME/CFS from other types of fatigue. PEM can be exacerbated by physical, mental, and/or emotional exertion. Basically, if you work out too hard or do too much (physically or mentally) do you crash for a week? This is a good review:

For Thyroid, did they do T3/T4 in addition to TSH?

To check for B12 deficiency, methylmalonic acid (MMA) and total plasma homocysteine (Hcy) are recommended, a normal B12 level by itself is not really diagnostic: The application and interpretation of laboratory biomarkers for the evaluation of vitamin B12 status - PubMed

If you have joint pain that's worse in the morning, gets better with jogging or weights, but gets worse if you sit down for awhile, or if you have eczema/rashes, or IBS symptoms, look into autoimmune conditions, an ANA test would be a good start w/ referral to rheumatology. Autoimmune conditions can cause horrible fatigue.

While less common than thyroid, autoimmune, or B12, but if those don't lead to anything, adrenal tests would be my next idea. With non-specific symptoms of fatigue, brain fog, and especially if you have any GI symptoms. 8am cortisol with ACTH and DHEAS.

"Patients with secondary adrenal insufficiency typically have low or intermediate morning cortisol levels (5-10 µg/dL) and low or low-normal corticotropin and DHEAS levels."

FYI - LabCorp reference for AM cortisol is 6.2-19.4 ug/dl, so if you're AM cortisol comes back in that intermediate 5-10 range, it will be reported as normal, and most likely your PCP will tell you it's normal, in which case you'd need to self advocate.

When I used to overtrain, yes. After a long run I often was fatigued for 3-5 days.

Yes, my latest test had TSH, T4, T3, and Free Thyroxine Index. What was interesting is that when I looked at my results, they were all within range but all (4) were near the bottom of the ranges. I did some initial research that suggests this may not be directly related to something wrong with the thyroid, but with your pituitary gland. Need to research further. If anyone has experience with this, please let me know your opinion.

It has been awhile but the last time my morning cortisol was tested, it was out of range - high. Which is my experience. I think my cortisol rages in the mornings. I often wake up (way too early) with my body just ramped up. Not a great feeling.
 
Forgot to mention, This is meant for ME/CFS, but I think it's a really good comprehensive fatigue workup in general.

Also, to you original question, If it were me, I'd would give it 3 more months and see if it drops. Your hematocrit is fine, but if it's going to be in the back of your mind and bother you then it might be best to drop it to something like 90mg/week for piece of mind.

Speaking of mind, adding hCG at 500IU twice a week knocked a fair bit off my brain fog. Not a complete fix, but it helped enough that I'm continuing it while I'm waiting to see other specialists.
This is what I did. I went to 40mg per shot. I am going to give it 6-8 weeks, monitor how I feel, and get new tests. If l lose some of my benefits and don't feel better, I will increase.

I have thought about adding hCG. I have read that for some men, it can help with the mental/emotional issues better than test alone. How does adding a dose of hCG affect how much test you take? Wouldn't it increase your natural production, thereby requiring a reduction in your test dose? Would love to learn more.
 
Sparky's comments remind me that intestinal permeability (leaky gut) could be at play here too. There are tests for that (LPS?) but it seems better to just follow a protocol that would cure/prevent the leaky gut, such as Dr. Gundry's Gut Check protocol.
Will look it up. I do not feel I get the nutrients from food well. I don't seem to have celiac or gluten intolerance. May be worth exploring.
 
This is what I did. I went to 40mg per shot. I am going to give it 6-8 weeks, monitor how I feel, and get new tests. If l lose some of my benefits and don't feel better, I will increase.

I have thought about adding hCG. I have read that for some men, it can help with the mental/emotional issues better than test alone. How does adding a dose of hCG affect how much test you take? Wouldn't it increase your natural production, thereby requiring a reduction in your test dose? Would love to learn more.
I think the HCG aspect has to be considered on a case by case basis, which makes it difficult to give advice on. For one, it affects various hormones and pathways, often in ways unique to the individual. As far as your question, yes it will increase natural production and it’s possible that a decrease in dose would be worth trying to maintain the current level you’re at if you feel good there. What kind of testicular function you had before starting trt may give you and idea of how much response you’ll get on that front from HCG. But as mentioned, it will also effect other pathways and processes(like aromatization capacity) so it’s possible that even at the same t levels you may not feel the same(could be better or worse). And we could dive into all of those different variables, but to be honest I don’t fully understand them and again I think it can vary significantly from person to person.

Just from my personal experience, I went from 120 mg/week down to around 100 after 3-4 weeks of HCG as I noticed them coming back online. Since then(over the past 2 years or so) I’ve drifted back up to between 110-120 per week and feel good on this protocol. But honestly, it probably would’ve been fine to just stay where I was after adding HCG. I don’t think there’s a clear cut right way to do it with regard to maintaining dose or dropping to account for endogenous production coming back online, and if there is, the difference from person to person would make it difficult to give advice on how much to lower. With that being the case I’d say the main thing is to just not sweat it too much and stick with your approach for a while no matter which route you go. The main advice I’d give with regard to HCG is to not get caught up in the 500 ius twice per week or bust mentality. I think most people would likely be better off doing between 100-250 ius three times per week. But yeah, some do fine with larger, less frequent doses so it may work for you. Just be flexible with it and give your body time to adapt if you decide to try it.
 
Ok, well then we could’ve saved a lot of time by having you present this ton of evidence that shows dosing at physiological levels is better than higher doses. Surely you will now present all this evidence. If that’s your claim, then the burden of proof is also on you to support your claim, or does it only work one way??

Ask yourself why we even have reference ranges. They are used to diagnose and treat disease/dysfunction. The dysfunction is clearly associated with levels above or below the range. I hope you aren't claiming otherwise.


For all the supporting studies you claim to have, all you can do is return to this one that didn't even look at intermediate doses for once-weekly injections, such as 75-100 mg TC/week. It is not relevant to the discussion here that once-weekly injections of 50 mg TC leads to periods of hypogonadism and poor results. I have never advocated such a protocol. It appears that a single straw man argument is all you have.

Are the millions of people that take creatine every day being absurd? ...

Do I need to explain the differences between a nutrient and a hormone? [Edit: News story today. Too much of anything is bad. What a surprise.]

Again, it isn’t “unproven benefits”… I’ve shared other studies with regard to well-being and mood along with other benefits.

Not one that compared mid-physiological levels to supraphysiological levels.

Sure some people may have risks from higher levels of testosterone, some have risks from taking it at all. Some people have risks from peanuts. People have risks from all types of things. We don’t base medical approaches on outliers.

There you go. Exactly what I've been saying. You don't begin treatment as if everyone is an outlier who needs high doses of testosterone. You start at average levels and work from there. Case closed.

...
The studies and real-world approach by the vast majority of trt doctors show people at 100-120 do better than people at 50-75. That doesn’t mean all, but it means it’s a reasonable starting point.

Now you're inventing stuff again. Where's the study showing that 100-120 mg TC/week is better than 75 mg/week? Just because some TRT doctors cater to the more-is-better mentality doesn't mean that results are actually better. On the contrary, anecdotally we see a lot of suffering from this approach.

2 things… well actually 2.5 things here

1.) you’re just using the tried and true persuasion technique of over-stating the benefit of what you’re supporting and also over-stating the risk of what you’re opposing. You fail to mention the risk of starting at 50 mg/week and ending up worse than when you started(which has been shown in a study).

Just can't let go of the straw man, can you?

You can claim that it doesn’t apply because levels were artificially dropped before starting the study, but actually the lack of endogenous testosterone would be a very real factor for people taking 50 mg/week. So there are risks to starting at 50 mg/week.

What I would actually claim is that the risks in starting with 50 mg TC/week in divided doses are less than the risks in starting with 100+ mg/week at any dose pattern.

Not the least of which is the patient stopping treatment before getting the benefits that could be provided at higher doses. It’s also extremely likely that they would not receive the full extent of benefits at that dose.

This exposes a further flaw in your reasoning. Unlike in the study, normal men beginning TRT have endogenous testosterone, to which the exogenous testosterone is added. Given that 100 mg TC/week is already supraphysiological for most men, the exogenous boost initially sends levels well above even marginally high. So you get the honeymoon, followed by an anti-honeymoon crash when endogenous production shuts down. Starting with 50 mg TC/week in divided doses would do a much better job of keeping patients physiological during the transition period. But then you don't think that being physiological is meaningful, do you?

this is supported by the studies I’ve shared(which for some reason you continue to lie about).

A single study that only supports a straw man argument. In what world are choices for TRT limited to 50 mg or 125 mg TC once a week?

And I even shared one in this very post that shows 125 per week is a great sweet spot for maximizing benefits while not introducing significant risks.

Same study, endless repetition.

2.) you’re just making stuff up and claiming it’s a tiny percentage of guys who need levels above 80 mg/week, and that the vast majority do fine with 80 mg per week or lower. Those claims are not supported by any studies I’ve seen or the real-world data or the countless anecdotal reports of people who need more than 80 mg week to get the most benefits.

Well at least 80 mg TC/week is an improvement over 100 mg. Grok estimates that about 20% of healthy young men make this much or more testosterone, on average. However, I question your estimation of "countless anecdotal reports". In my estimation, the number of reports of men starting TRT at say 60-80 mg TC/week and switching to 100+ mg for the long haul is quite small, and negligible compared to the number who start at 100+ mg and complain about intractable problems.

...But don’t lie and say there isn’t tons of evidence that additional benefits come along with higher doses(as in 100-120) without a substantial increase in risks.

Yet you still haven't provided evidence for this. Quote a study that says as much. Not one where the comparison is to hypogonadism, e.g. 50 mg TC once a week. The study should also focus on overall health and quality of life rather than body composition.

People making that calculation aren’t being “absurd” as you like to claim.

2.5) you’re being hypocritical by just making stuff up and not providing any evidence for your claims while demanding that the burden of proof is on others any time they make a statement.

Your logic only applies if the physiological range is some meaningless construct.

Which reminds me… weren’t you supposed to be sharing a “ton of proof” that shows doses of 50-75 mg provides as many or more benefits than 100-120 while being a lot safer??

Only if decades of medical science is to be ignored.
 
Last edited:
Ask yourself why we even have reference ranges. They are used to diagnose and treat disease/dysfunction. The dysfunction is clearly associated with levels above or below the range. I hope you aren't claiming otherwise.



For all the supporting studies you claim to have, all you can do is return to this one that didn't even look at intermediate doses for once-weekly injections, such as 75-100 mg TC/week. It is not relevant to the discussion here that once-weekly injections of 50 mg TC leads to periods of hypogonadism and poor results. I have never advocated such a protocol. It appears that a single straw man argument is all you have.



Do I need to explain the differences between a nutrient and a hormone? [Edit: News story today. Too much of anything is bad. What a surprise.]



Not one that compared mid-physiological levels to supraphysiological levels.



There you go. Exactly what I've been saying. You don't begin treatment as if everyone is an outlier who needs high doses of testosterone. You start at average levels and work from there. Case closed.



Now you're inventing stuff again. Where's the study showing that 100-120 mg TC/week is better than 75 mg/week? Just because some TRT doctors cater to the more-is-better mentality doesn't mean that results are actually better. On the contrary, anecdotally we see a lot of suffering from this approach.



Just can't let go of the straw man, can you?



What I would actually claim is that the risks in starting with 50 mg TC/week in divided doses are less than the risks in starting with 100+ mg/week at any dose pattern.



This exposes a further flaw in your reasoning. Unlike in the study, normal men beginning TRT have endogenous testosterone, to which the exogenous testosterone is added. Given that 100 mg TC/week is already supraphysiological for most men, the exogenous boost initially sends levels well above even marginally high. So you get the honeymoon, followed by an anti-honeymoon crash when endogenous production shuts down. Starting with 50 mg TC/week in divided doses would do a much better job of keeping patients physiological during the transition period. But then you don't think that being physiological is meaningful, do you?



A single study that only supports a straw man argument. In what world are choices for TRT limited to 50 mg or 125 mg TC once a week?



Same study, endless repetition.



Well at least 80 mg TC/week is an improvement over 100 mg. Grok estimates that about 20% of healthy young men make this much or more testosterone, on average. However, I question your estimation of "countless anecdotal reports". In my estimation, the number of reports of men starting TRT at say 60-80 mg TC/week and switching to 100+ mg for the long haul is quite small, and negligible compared to the number who start at 100+ mg and complain about intractable problems.



Yet you still haven't provided evidence for this. Quote a study that says as much. Not one where the comparison is to hypogonadism, e.g. 50 mg TC once a week. The study should also focus on overall health and quality of life rather than body composition.



Your logic only applies if the physiological range is some meaningless construct.



Only if decades of medical science is to be ignored.
And not a single ounce of that “ton of evidence” you always talk about for your case has been seen.


Not even the least bit surprised.




I’ll give you credit for one thing though… your bobbing and weaving skills are so good even prime Muhammad Ali would be proud.



I literally presented a study that explicitly states the sweet spot was 125 mg per week with regard to benefits with minimal risks. And you keep going “but this that or the other is what I would say is best…” while still not sharing anything at all to support your case.
 

hCG Mixing Calculator

HCG Mixing Protocol Calculator

TRT Hormone Predictor Widget

TRT Hormone Predictor

Predict estradiol, DHT, and free testosterone levels based on total testosterone

⚠️ Medical Disclaimer

This tool provides predictions based on statistical models and should NOT replace professional medical advice. Always consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your TRT protocol.

ℹ️ Input Parameters

Normal range: 300-1000 ng/dL

Predicted Hormone Levels

Enter your total testosterone value to see predictions

Results will appear here after calculation

Understanding Your Hormones

Estradiol (E2)

A form of estrogen produced from testosterone. Important for bone health, mood, and libido. Too high can cause side effects; too low can affect well-being.

DHT

Dihydrotestosterone is a potent androgen derived from testosterone. Affects hair growth, prostate health, and masculinization effects.

Free Testosterone

The biologically active form of testosterone not bound to proteins. Directly available for cellular uptake and biological effects.

Scientific Reference

Lakshman KM, Kaplan B, Travison TG, Basaria S, Knapp PE, Singh AB, LaValley MP, Mazer NA, Bhasin S. The effects of injected testosterone dose and age on the conversion of testosterone to estradiol and dihydrotestosterone in young and older men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2010 Aug;95(8):3955-64.

DOI: 10.1210/jc.2010-0102 | PMID: 20534765 | PMCID: PMC2913038

Beyond Testosterone Podcast

Online statistics

Members online
6
Guests online
1,124
Total visitors
1,130

Latest posts

Back
Top