Wild ride! Went from 120mg > 100mg > 80mg > 90mg. T is higher at 90mg 3x a week than 100mg 2x a week

[Sandz]

So its been quite a journey.

48 165ish, 5'6". Always had low free T so I decided to start the journey to optimize. I've posted before, this is my update, thanks for all the previous insight. I can provide other markers if anyone things they are valuable

I started at 120mgs 6 months ago, ended up woth total T over 1500 and didnt think that was good or necessary. Now starting to get dialed in after a lot of trial and error.

100mg sub q 2x a week
T - 1245
E - 77/68 sensitive
SHBG - 60
Albumin 4.6
DHEA - 118

80mg sub q 2x a week (terrible ride down but felt ok after a month)
T - 826
E - 37/22 sensitive
SHBG - 47
Albumin 4.4
DHEA - 154

90mg sub q 3x a week (thinking to meet in the middle close to 1000 and keep E and SHBG down)
T - 1253
E - 39/pending result sensitive
SHBG - 61
Albumin 4.5
DHEA - 28 (stopped taking 25mg if that matters)

I realize free T is very important so I want to address that, but the primary complaint is sleep!! Adding in Sermorelin didn't help much so I am trying CJC/IPA stack. I'm pretty sure the 1200+ total T is not helping my good nights sleep, not is it needed! Im feeling good in the gym, I am making tiny but gradual gains, my diet is on, and I am trying to do everything right, I feel I am so close to being dialed in. I am titrating down to 84 3x a week (easy to measure), but I am not even sure the frequency matters as much as the dose because I am not sure I felt that different day 3.5 between 2 doses. I tested on Mon fasted with the same trough I'm pretty sure, so timing was similar. I had a terrible drop from 100 to 80 so I am being careful about any drastic fluctuations.

What are your thoughts, any advise or assistance, ill take it!

 

[Phil Goodman]

So its been quite a journey.

48 165ish, 5'6". Always had low free T so I decided to start the journey to optimize. I've posted before, this is my update, thanks for all the previous insight. I can provide other markers if anyone things they are valuable

I started at 120mgs 6 months ago, ended up woth total T over 1500 and didnt think that was good or necessary. Now starting to get dialed in after a lot of trial and error.

100mg sub q 2x a week
T - 1245
E - 77/68 sensitive
SHBG - 60
Albumin 4.6
DHEA - 118

80mg sub q 2x a week (terrible ride down but felt ok after a month)
T - 826
E - 37/22 sensitive
SHBG - 47
Albumin 4.4
DHEA - 154

90mg sub q 3x a week (thinking to meet in the middle close to 1000 and keep E and SHBG down)
T - 1253
E - 39/pending result sensitive
SHBG - 61
Albumin 4.5
DHEA - 28 (stopped taking 25mg if that matters)

I realize free T is very important so I want to address that, but the primary complaint is sleep!! Adding in Sermorelin didn't help much so I am trying CJC/IPA stack. I'm pretty sure the 1200+ total T is not helping my good nights sleep, not is it needed! Im feeling good in the gym, I am making tiny but gradual gains, my diet is on, and I am trying to do everything right, I feel I am so close to being dialed in. I am titrating down to 84 3x a week (easy to measure), but I am not even sure the frequency matters as much as the dose because I am not sure I felt that different day 3.5 between 2 doses. I tested on Mon fasted with the same trough I'm pretty sure, so timing was similar. I had a terrible drop from 100 to 80 so I am being careful about any drastic fluctuations.

What are your thoughts, any advise or assistance, ill take it!

My initial thoughts are 1.) you’re worried about numbers too much and 2.) you’re changing protocols too often.

Basically every month and a half you change your protocols… so for the entire half of the year your body hasn’t been allowed to really settle in, and that’s not even factoring in the peptides or other supplements not mentioned in the post above. If you felt good at 80 then why did you go back up? Also, the sleep aspect would likely improve if you actually gave your body enough time to settle in. Plus there are lots of other things you can focus on to improve sleep hygiene. But sure, higher levels of t can disrupt sleep so if it’s that bad then just go back down to 80 if you’d prefer. But I’m guessing there must be some reason you wanted to go back up. You’ll have to decide which benefits you prioritize the most, which negative aspects you’re willing to accept and to what extent, then find the protocol that provides the right balance. And as mentioned above, give your body ample time to settle into it.

 

[Vince]

At one time. I injected 100 mg of testosterone twice a week with 500 IU of HCG twice a week. I did feel my best on that protocol. My sleep and and anxiety were both good. No issues. I just could not control my HCT so I lowered my dose and now I inject 16 mg daily and 500 IU of HCG every third day.

 

[Seagal]

IMO you have a very good absorption with SC injections.
Imo your shbg looked better with 80mg. Could do 3x/w SC to achieve a higher trough level. That would get you closer to your magic number...
You should include hct in your labs!

 

[Sandz]

My initial thoughts are 1.) you’re worried about numbers too much and 2.) you’re changing protocols too often.

Basically every month and a half you change your protocols… so for the entire half of the year your body hasn’t been allowed to really settle in, and that’s not even factoring in the peptides or other supplements not mentioned in the post above. If you felt good at 80 then why did you go back up? Also, the sleep aspect would likely improve if you actually gave your body enough time to settle in. Plus there are lots of other things you can focus on to improve sleep hygiene. But sure, higher levels of t can disrupt sleep so if it’s that bad then just go back down to 80 if you’d prefer. But I’m guessing there must be some reason you wanted to go back up. You’ll have to decide which benefits you prioritize the most, which negative aspects you’re willing to accept and to what extent, then find the protocol that provides the right balance. And as mentioned above, give your body ample time to settle into it.

You may be right, and judging from the fact that some of my markers went up when I lowered again leads me to believe my body just needs a little bit more time to adjust. I was chasing a little free T, and I thought maybe 90 would be my sweet spot so I made that adjustment. I'm dialing it back a little bit to 84 mg, because it's easy to measure, and it's not a huge adjustment and I will try to give it a little more time before adjusting....I'm just anxious, hoping for the perfect everything which is silly, I know. It's definitely between 80/90 and 2x/3x per weekz I'm close. Also the more I think about it, long term I'm not sure if it's healthy to be at that I have a number. I keep thinking is this sustainable into the later years of my life ;-)

 

[Sandz]

At one time. I injected 100 mg of testosterone twice a week with 500 IU of HCG twice a week. I did feel my best on that protocol. My sleep and and anxiety were both good. No issues. I just could not control my HCT so I lowered my dose and now I inject 16 mg daily and 500 IU of HCG every third day.

Interesting. I'm not sure I feel much different 2x versus 3x. Maybe because my numbers were plenty good I didn't really notice the troughs.

 

[Sandz]

IMO you have a very good absorption with SC injections.
Imo your shbg looked better with 80mg. Could do 3x/w SC to achieve a higher trough level. That would get you closer to your magic number...
You should include hct in your labs!

You mean back at 80mg, just 3 days a week?

 

[Sandz]

You mean back at 80mg, just 3 days a week?

Hct
120 - 48.9 when I started my journey 6 weeks into try

100 -52 when I dropped down initially 6-7weeks after begining

80 - 50.1 probably still high from when it was 120 and 100 (evidence I'm slow to adjust)

90 - 50.5 most recent

 

[Seagal]

You mean back at 80mg, just 3 days a week?

Yes. Your body will adjust. Maybe later you can tolerate more T and maybe it would give more benefits then.

 

[Sandz]

Yes. Your body will adjust. Maybe later you can tolerate more T and maybe it would give more benefits then.

Ya. I'm gonna stick to this 3x this slight drop to 84mg for a minute and try to really adjust. I think at that point I'll really be able to see the picture clearly. It'll would indicate if 2x or 3x is better to control my SHBG, and or if I can go even lower. For me less maybe more, the balance to the most free T I can get maybe what works for me. I'll watch my sleep, hopefully that improves soon, and keep an eye on hematocrit too which does seem to be under 50ish once my dose is in this current range.

I did check my iron too per another members suggestion and that came back in check too.

Also a side note to all....I've been fighting my cardiologist about taking a statin and I was able to lower my cholesterol from 300 to 173 this last draw! It's been declining for 6 months, sorta when I started TRT. I've been taking bergamot, coq10, and niacin. Happy about that.

 

[Systemlord]

The two largest-ever NIH-funded, multi-center clinical trials (the Women’s Health Initiative and the Minnesota Coronary Survey) where saturated fats were either reduced or replaced by unsaturated fats, on nearly 54,000 men and women, concluded that saturated fats had no effect on cardiovascular mortality or total mortality.

A 2016 (27 years later) analysis of buried data from the Minnesota Coronary Survey found a 22% higher risk of death for each 30 mg/dL reduction in serum cholesterol.

Re-evaluation of the traditional diet-heart hypothesis: analysis of recovered data from Minnesota Coronary Experiment (1968-73) - PubMed

Available evidence from randomized controlled trials shows that replacement of saturated fat in the diet with linoleic acid effectively lowers serum cholesterol but does not support the hypothesis that this translates to a lower risk of death from coronary heart disease or all causes. Findings...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A review of 17 systematic reviews concludes that diets that replace saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat do not convincingly reduce cardiovascular events or mortality.

Another review of 19 meta-analyses concluded that the effects of saturated fat on heart disease were inconsistent but tended to show a lack of association.

Dietary saturated fat and heart disease: a narrative review - PubMed

The American Heart Association (AHA) recently published a meta-analysis that confirmed their 60-year-old recommendation to limit saturated fat (SFA, saturated fatty acid) and replace it with polyunsaturated fat to reduce the risk of heart disease based on the strength of 4 Core Trials. To assess...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Two large NIH-funded, multi-center clinical trials on altogether more than 50,000 men and women who significantly cut back on red-meat consumption (while increasing fruits, vegetables and grains) did not see any risk reduction for polyp re-occurrence or any kind of cancer.

Low-fat dietary pattern and risk of colorectal cancer: the Women's Health Initiative Randomized Controlled Dietary Modification Trial - PubMed

ClinicalTrials.gov Identifier: NCT00000611.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Epidemiology has given us some spectacular health failures over recent decades: hormone replacement therapy, anti-oxidant vitamins and caps on dietary cholesterol, to name a few.

At best, epidemiological studies can show only association and cannot establish causation, which means that the data can be used to suggest hypotheses but not to prove them. Observational studies that link nutrition with disease generally find tiny differences in risk (relative risks of 1-2) which are not enough to generate confidence that an association is real.

Red meat cannot possibly cause diabetes, because glucose (sugar) is the principal driver of type 2 diabetes, and meat contains no glucose. Moreover, red meat availability has dropped dramatically as diabetes has skyrocketed, making any proposed connection between red meat and diabetes self-evidently unreasonable:

U.S. Trends in Food Availability and a Dietary Assessment of Loss-Adjusted Food Availability, 1970-2014 | Economic Research Service

This report examines the amount of food available for consumption and related food trends in the United States from 1970 to 2014 using the food availability data in ERS’s Food Availability (Per Capita) Data System. It also estimates whether Americans, on average, are meeting the dietary...

www.ers.usda.gov

 

[Systemlord]

The holy Grail of nutrition research -> Scientific Evidence on Red Meat and Health - Pastebin.com

 

[Sandz]

You guys just blew my mind. I'm not gonna stop my supps perse, but I'm not going to try to lower, I'm in fine range. I know in 2025 there are more important things to review....this is what happens when you go the cardiologist and he makes you think you'll die tomorrow without a statin!

Any thoughts on my trt ;-). Kidding, thanks for all this. It just proves we need to all be learning and continuing to educate ourselves ...it's a shame doctors aren't forced to do better/be better and share information like this. They don't have to change their mind, but at least be open to what could be.

 

[Seagal]

You guys just blew my mind. I'm not gonna stop my supps perse, but I'm not going to try to lower, I'm in fine range. I know in 2025 there are more important things to review....this is what happens when you go the cardiologist and he makes you think you'll die tomorrow without a statin!

Any thoughts on my trt ;-). Kidding, thanks for all this. It just proves we need to all be learning and continuing to educate ourselves ...it's a shame doctors aren't forced to do better/be better and share information like this. They don't have to change their mind, but at least be open to what could be.

They should not misinform and mislead people.