Why clomid instead of nolvadex?

[baitbker]

Why is clomid used instead of nolvadex in a restart monotherapy protocol? From what I understand nolvadex should have similar results to clomid but with less side effects. Can you use nolvadex as a monotherapy? What am I missing?

 

[Vince Carter]

What am I missing?

cost of the two drugs.

But on this forum there are extremely few on a restart, you may be thinking of PCT and AAS which is not a part of this forum. Nolva is much more common in those circles.

 

[Cataceous]

Tamoxifen doesn't necessarily have fewer side effects. There's definitely liver toxicity with long-term use. It's also less selective, which can be good if you want to increase bone mineral density or fight gynecomastia. But it may be more problematic in other organs. I suspect most problems guys have with Clomid are due to zuclomifene. You can bypass these if you are able to use pure enclomifene.

 

[baitbker]

From what I understand, nolva is mostly an estrogen antagonist whereas clomid is an antagonist in some parts of the body and an agonist in other parts, with it being more agonist in the brain. If nolva is more strongly an estrogen antagonist in the brain, shouldn't that trick the pituitary to produce more LH? I think this is the reason why some men have "moody/ emotional" side effects from clomid and not as much on nolva.

 

[baitbker]

And is nolva more hepatoxic than clomid then?
And didn't the fda shut enclomifene down, meaning you will not be able to get it prescribed?

 

[Vince]

Are guys that do well on low dose clomid unicorns...or do they really exist?

 

[Cataceous]

From what I understand, nolva is mostly an estrogen antagonist whereas clomid is an antagonist in some parts of the body and an agonist in other parts, with it being more agonist in the brain. If nolva is more strongly an estrogen antagonist in the brain, shouldn't that trick the pituitary to produce more LH? I think this is the reason why some men have "moody/ emotional" side effects from clomid and not as much on nolva.

They both have mixed agonist/antagonist effects on different estrogen receptors. Clomid has at least comparable effects on the brain. Side effects are mainly from the estrogenic zuclomifene isomer.
From Wikipedia:

 

[Cataceous]

And is nolva more hepatoxic than clomid then?
And didn't the fda shut enclomifene down, meaning you will not be able to get it prescribed?

Tamoxifen can induce fatty liver, whether or not that technically counts as hepatotoxicity.

A recent post claims there is a compounding pharmacy offering enclomifene. If this is correct then it may be possible to get it prescribed.

Whereas zuclomifene is more estrogenic, enclomifene is more antiestrogenic.[4] In accordance, unlike enclomifene, zuclomifene is antigonadotropic due to activation of the ER and is able to reduce testosterone levels in men to near-castrate levels.[4] As such, isomerically pure enclomifene is more favorable than clomifene as a progonadotropin for the treatment of male hypogonadism.[4]

Enclomifene - Wikipedia

 

[baitbker]

Tamoxifen can induce fatty liver, whether or not that technically counts as hepatotoxicity.

A recent post claims there is a compounding pharmacy offering enclomifene. If this is correct then it may be possible to get it prescribed.


Enclomifene - Wikipedia

But so it seems that tamoxifen should be similar to enclomifene, except being worse for your liver?

 

[Cataceous]

But so it seems that tamoxifen should be similar to enclomifene, except being worse for your liver?

Similar, yes, but possibly better at fighting gynecomastia and improving bone mineral density.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Before I started clomid monotherapy some years ago I researched people's experiences on this topic as best I could, and the answer seems to be, as with so many other topics, that some people do better on clomid and some do better on tamox, so it seem like it is a case of try both and see how you do. All the studies I could find were done with Clomid so that may be part of the reason why it is the default. Much of the problem with clomid IMO is using too much (even in formal studies) so the bad experiences based on the astronomical doses the younger chemical athlete crowd uses give clomid an undeserved bad reputation, IMO.

 

[Cataceous]

... Much of the problem with clomid IMO is using too much (even in formal studies) so the bad experiences based on the astronomical doses the younger chemical athlete crowd uses give clomid an undeserved bad reputation, IMO.

Yes, an interesting feature of these SERMs is that excessive doses can actually result in less testosterone production than lower doses.

 

[baitbker]

Yes, an interesting feature of these SERMs is that excessive doses can actually result in less testosterone production than lower doses.

What should be the appropriate dose of tamoxifen for a jumpstart?

 

[Cataceous]

What should be the appropriate dose of tamoxifen for a jumpstart?

Normal post-cycle therapy doses are said to be 20 mg ED. But if it's analogous to Clomid then this dose may be higher than necessary by two to four times, meaning 5 or 10 mg ED might still be effective.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Tamoxifen lowers IGF-1. Most guys feel shitty on it.

 

[broker]

Clomid has a more direct effect on the hypothalamus. Clomid also doesnt raise shbg nearly as much as nolvadex. Nolvadex also lowers IGF1 whereas clomid doesnt seem to do that. Low dose clomid seems to work better.
Nolvadex is much better for gyno as its more breast tissue specific..

 

[wandering81]

Nothing scientific here proven with labs, but 5mg nolva eod for a week or 2 sure plumps up my nuts for a couple months. Havnt taken clomid in a loooong time, nor will i ever touch that stuff again. Made me feel awful, and crazy.

 

[acslater55]

Clomid has a more direct effect on the hypothalamus. Clomid also doesnt raise shbg nearly as much as nolvadex. ..

Where are you getting this from? I have never seen any studies that indicate that. Please give links if you have them.

 

[Drofeyes21]

Tamoxifen is also known to cause enlarged optic nerves, dry eyes, and decreased vision due to retinopathy. Cataracts are also a presupposed sequela but that hasn’t been confirmed with studies.