When does estrogen become a concern?

[SilverSurfer]

What was your range? It looks like it got cut off

Yup. Weird format issue. My baselines were 850 to 1150 with an average in the 900s. I started TRT when I was at 380 - 430ish. I’ve had T in the mid 1400s on certain protocols. Throughout this time my personality hasn’t changed. I’m a VP in a large company. Have owned my own business that had 29 full time employees. Been a sales leader. This notion that CEOs are some hard-charging, alpha dog type, is red pill / incel silliness. I know several C level people quite well. I know a dozen or more of the Fortune 500 CEO / CMO / CFO here in the Twin Cities. (When I say I know them, I mean I have their private cell phone numbers, know their spouses, and their children). They are no different than us mere mortals and struggle with depression, aging, and stress as we do.

TRT or steroid abuse isn’t a magic pill. Starting testosterone when you have no baselines and then proceeding to self medicate, completely unchecked, and unsupervised is reckless. I know plenty of people (myself included) who feel much better using cocaine and opiates and using them to out compete others in business....but ultimately leads to a massive pothole to hit in life down the road.

 

[Charliebizz]

I wouldn’t go as far as saying that lol. But you’re half correct. He would rather see you follow the “rules” of TRT, than feel good, which is ridiculous, and cult/ religious like behavior, imo.

Wait but this new Facebook group isn’t like a cult. We are trying to promote safe trt at excel. Those guys are down right reckless half the time. And very hypocritical. Danny starts quoting Dr mark Gordon in one breath but doesn’t believe in majority of the way dr mark practices medicine. Dr mark isn’t doing anything near what that Facebook group considers trt. Come on gman you’ve been around long enough to know what’s going on. That is more cult like then anyone over here. I do agree madman goes a little nuts with his tru t calculator but the guy genuinely try’s to help.

And I’m not against you guys doing what makes you happy but spreading misinformation like the last few posts and what tot group posts is crazy. People weren’t super humans 100 years ago we didn’t have the technology we have today to get shit done. They also didn’t live this go go go life and rested more we work like animals then come home and add more stress with tv video games internet. We are more on the move then ever.

 

[Charliebizz]

Yup. Weird format issue. My baselines were 850 to 1150 with an average in the 900s. I started TRT when I was at 380 - 430ish. I’ve had T in the mid 1400s on certain protocols. Throughout this time my personality hasn’t changed. I’m a VP in a large company. Have owned my own business that had 29 full time employees. Been a sales leader. This notion that CEOs are some hard-charging, alpha dog type, is red pill / incel silliness. I know several C level people quite well. I know a dozen or more of the Fortune 500 CEO / CMO / CFO here in the Twin Cities. (When I say I know them, I mean I have their private cell phone numbers, know their spouses, and their children). They are no different than us mere mortals and struggle with depression, aging, and stress as we do.

TRT or steroid abuse isn’t a magic pill. Starting testosterone when you have no baselines and then proceeding to self medicate, completely unchecked, and unsupervised is reckless. I know plenty of people (myself included) who feel much better using cocaine and opiates and using them to out compete others in business....but ultimately leads to a massive pothole to hit in life down the road.

Yup. Weird format issue. My baselines were 850 to 1150 with an average in the 900s. I started TRT when I was at 380 - 430ish. I’ve had T in the mid 1400s on certain protocols. Throughout this time my personality hasn’t changed. I’m a VP in a large company. Have owned my own business that had 29 full time employees. Been a sales leader. This notion that CEOs are some hard-charging, alpha dog type, is red pill / incel silliness. I know several C level people quite well. I know a dozen or more of the Fortune 500 CEO / CMO / CFO here in the Twin Cities. (When I say I know them, I mean I have their private cell phone numbers, know their spouses, and their children). They are no different than us mere mortals and struggle with depression, aging, and stress as we do.

TRT or steroid abuse isn’t a magic pill. Starting testosterone when you have no baselines and then proceeding to self medicate, completely unchecked, and unsupervised is reckless. I know plenty of people (myself included) who feel much better using cocaine and opiates and using them to out compete others in business....but ultimately leads to a massive pothole to hit in life down the road.

Great post. And to add to that a lot of these guys giving advice on these groups don’t tell the whole story. They are extremely vain people willing to risk there lives to look good. Like your saying just regular local gym rats. I have friends in roids that are honest they feel like shit a lot of the time but when they go off they feel even worse and deflate to a degree and commence the vicious cycle.

And look at dr crisler. He looked amazing bragged about saving his own life when he had a heart attack then took his life a few years later. And this was the guy giving us advice on how hormones are a life saver. Even hormones can’t save you from your genetics and or demons. And I’m in no way saying that crisler didn’t do great work I was a patient of his I’m just showing that trt is not the holy grail and staying at high doses is tricky business

 

[Appassionato]

Even hormones can’t save you from your genetics and or demons.

This should be a sticky at the beginning of the forum first page.

 

[Charliebizz]

Yup. Weird format issue. My baselines were 850 to 1150 with an average in the 900s. I started TRT when I was at 380 - 430ish. I’ve had T in the mid 1400s on certain protocols. Throughout this time my personality hasn’t changed. I’m a VP in a large company. Have owned my own business that had 29 full time employees. Been a sales leader. This notion that CEOs are some hard-charging, alpha dog type, is red pill / incel silliness. I know several C level people quite well. I know a dozen or more of the Fortune 500 CEO / CMO / CFO here in the Twin Cities. (When I say I know them, I mean I have their private cell phone numbers, know their spouses, and their children). They are no different than us mere mortals and struggle with depression, aging, and stress as we do.

TRT or steroid abuse isn’t a magic pill. Starting testosterone when you have no baselines and then proceeding to self medicate, completely unchecked, and unsupervised is reckless. I know plenty of people (myself included) who feel much better using cocaine and opiates and using them to out compete others in business....but ultimately leads to a massive pothole to hit in life down the road.

I’m in heavy construction. Massive projects in Long Island and nyc. And a good amount of the guys that own these multimillion/billion dollar company’s are out of shape fat guys it’s a personality trait. I’m a go getter at my job. But I’m the type of guy that values family and fun more then work. At home I’m always messing around with something and have projects going on. But I like being home. I’m not driven by money as much as someone like my old boss. He had everything. But he eats,sleeps,shit work. 10,000sq foot house on the water in Long Island owns 20 or so company’s. Owns 160 office buildings and over 80 houses. But the guy always felt like shit has a bunch of health issues along the way it’s just the way he was raised and his personality. His two brothers are also the same. The old man is mid 70s still part of the business. Not a chance these guys are 2x over the range in t. They won’t even go to the dr unless it’s a dire emergency

 

[Gman86]

I was about to do a post with the same content, but you actually did the work for me.
Thanks.

The great grandfather testosterone levels theory is so flawed and generic that I don't even understand how you can base your treatment on it.

And let me share my experience. I've been on sustanon and DHT compounds in my early 20s, always low or moderate cycles, and it felt great for the first year.
Then the side effects started kicking in, that brought to finasteride usage and both together brought to the hell I've been through since I was 25.

You guys said you prefer to live a good life until 60 rather than 90 unwell. Fair enough.
But where did you get the insurance you'll get to 60? Several amateur body builders got an angina pectoris in their 30s. And I'm not talking about pros doing several compounds all together. I'm talking about people competing in local competitions.

I would at least get a lab work done if I was you, even just to know where are your levels to understand what makes you feel good.

How is guys doing bodybuilding competitions even remotely comparable to using 200-250mg of testosterone per week? Even guys doing local shows are most likely going to be doing at least 300-500mg of testosterone, and will most likely be using multiple compounds. To compare bodybuilders to guys going slightly above TRT doses, is just disingenuous and ignorant. No offense obviously, but it just is.

and we’re talking about living a great life until 85, instead of possibly living until 90. Not a difference of 30 years. You have to be out of your mind to really think bumping testosterone up a little above normal TRT levels is going to take 30 years off your life.

 

[Charliebizz]

How is guys doing bodybuilding competitions even remotely comparable to using 200-250mg of testosterone per week? Even guys doing local shows are most likely going to be doing at least 300-500mg of testosterone, and will most likely be using multiple compounds. To compare bodybuilders to guys going slightly above TRT doses, is just disingenuous and ignorant. No offense obviously, but it just is.

and we’re talking about living a great life until 85, instead of possibly living until 90. Not a difference of 30 years. You have to be out of your mind to really think bumping testosterone up a little above normal TRT levels is going to take 30 years off your life.

I don’t think that was the point he was trying to make at all.

 

[Cataceous]

FWIW - I'm 56 yrs old and did not get T tested until last year when I was able to convince my doc that something was not right. My Total T was 430 [264-916] and Free T was 7 [7.2-24] - nothing else of relevance was tested due to my and my doctors ignorance. I've spent the last year "dialing in" with moderate success. I have 2 boys that are in good health and very fit (27 yrs and 30 yrs). They workout with weights often, more for strength than bodybuilding, and as far as I know they do not take any supplements that would impact their T levels. They are both very strong. I recently asked them to get tested so that they would have a baseline for the future, and also I wanted to know where they are at now, in their prime, and I would try to use that as a target for myself (rather than keep shooting in the dark). These are their results:

27 yr old: Total Test 651 [160-853], Free T 11.9 [3.5-15.5], SHBG 38 [10-57]
30 yr old: Total Test 614 [249-836], Free T 52 [35-92], SHBG 40 [16-55], E 20 [8-35]

In my case, when I got my Total T to ~630, my Free T was 10 [True T] and E was 36 [8-35]. When my Total T was 900, my Free T was 23 [7-24] E was about 45 [8-35]. So while I realize there is not enough data here to draw any real conclusions, it seem as though from injections I'm not getting as much conversion to Free T as my kids are, but my E is proportionally higher. My SHBG was not tested prior to starting TRT, however over the last year it has ranged from 30 - 36.

Thanks for this information. If jibes with the general idea that total testosterone for males at their peak averages around 600-700 ng/dL. For SHBG I think the average at age 30 is around 30 nMol/L.

In the case of Tru-T free testosterone, assuming typical albumin levels, your sons' average is 21 ng/dL (16-31). But your SHBG is lower, so with total testosterone around the same as theirs your free testosterone is a little higher. When your total testosterone is 900 ng/dL then your free T is close to the top of the healthy reference range.

 

[bixt]

And if your theory about the modern day alpha males. So either all of them are on trt or they all have levels double the range.

The conclusion you have deduced is twisted. I am saying, to have that "alpha feeling" as you put it, I and many others require levels over the top of the range. These "modern day alpha males" may or may not have such levels, may or may not be on TRT and this is completely irrelevant to me.

If I desire the "alpha feeling" and high end dosing takes me there then so what? It seems that in this forum I not entitled and worthy to carry on feeling awesome simply because "normal" levels don't allow me to and\or because it is not my "default" personality trait and\or because I wasn't born that way.

I will continue to do what I need to do, to make me feel the way I want to feel!

 

[SilverSurfer]

The conclusion you have deduced is twisted. I am saying, to have that "alpha feeling" as you put it, I and many others require levels over the top of the range. These "modern day alpha males" may or may not have such levels, may or may not be on TRT and this is completely irrelevant to me.

If I desire the "alpha feeling" and high end dosing takes me there then so what? It seems that in this forum I not entitled and worthy to carry on feeling awesome simply because "normal" levels don't allow me to and\or because it is not my "default" personality trait and\or because I wasn't born that way.

I will continue to do what I need to do, to make me feel the way I want to feel!

You’re rationalizing. I’ve been around addicts a long time, and I’ve heard the same about using cocaine and opiates.

Of course you can continue to “do you”. You just can’t expect not to be called out on it when you’re recommending it to others. You have to admit what you’re doing is reckless. You don’t even know if you had low T to start with. I’ve seen hundreds of posts of Reddit users claiming they had low T, then finally got their T tested and it was in the 500 to 800s....not low T.

Sure you may feel great on T....how do you think bodybuilders got “hooked” on AAS abuse to start with? They felt normal to start with but with AAS they feel great! The vast majority of TRT posters here felt like garbage and wanted to feel normal again.

You’ve never gotten stable on a dose. You’ve just kept increasing your dose. What happens in 3 months if you don’t feel great anymore, but you do feel great at 300 mg per week? What then? Where does it stop?

 

[Appassionato]

How is guys doing bodybuilding competitions even remotely comparable to using 200-250mg of testosterone per week? Even guys doing local shows are most likely going to be doing at least 300-500mg of testosterone, and will most likely be using multiple compounds. To compare bodybuilders to guys going slightly above TRT doses, is just disingenuous and ignorant. No offense obviously, but it just is.

and we’re talking about living a great life until 85, instead of possibly living until 90. Not a difference of 30 years. You have to be out of your mind to really think bumping testosterone up a little above normal TRT levels is going to take 30 years off your life.

60

That was his post, go back 2 pages and voilà, you will find it. According to him, worst case scenario he will leave 60 years.

Once again, a mild cycle is 300 mg of T every week. This has been discussed time ago in another topic about AIs again, and I had to go to do screenshots on T nation forum to prove it. Don't make me do the same exercise.
I've been in the game, I know how it works.
So called natural bodybuilders do even less than that, use short esters way before the competition, so that in case of a doping check they will look like they are clean.

200 mg of T weekly will shoot my levels above someone doing the double than that, due to my medication sensibility in general.
Not checking your levels in such amount is absolutely irresponsible. And don't tell me there's a huge difference between 250 and 300.

In general this is the same attitude that destroyed my life. You feel great on higher doses in the beginning, you feel like you are invincible and you don't even want to hear about side effects, this is something that always happens to someone else.
When they hit you though, you will spend the rest of your life thinking how stupid you have been and regretting what you have done every single day.

 

[OneJoe]

In general this is the same attitude that destroyed my life. You feel great on higher doses in the beginning, you feel like you are invincible and you don't even want to hear about side effects, this is something that always happens to someone else.
When they hit you though, you will spend the rest of your life thinking how stupid you have been and regretting what you have done every single day.

What happened?

 

[bixt]

You’re rationalizing. I’ve been around addicts a long time, and I’ve heard the same about using cocaine and opiates.

Around 200mg \ week +- 25% is NOT the same thing as hard drugs and neither is the rationale for taking them!

What happens in 3 months if you don’t feel great anymore, but you do feel great at 300 mg per week? What then? Where does it stop?

Why don't we check back in 3 months?

 

[Appassionato]

What happened?

Sustanon, nandrolone and DHT compounds for 2 years and a half, along with finasteride for 7 years to counteract one of the side effects. Because obviously you need more drugs to fight the side effects of drugs, right?

Result: secondary hypogonadism, that has been resistant to every treatment apart from TRT, despite a healthy lifestyle.
Intolerant to HCG, which means possible infertility at 32 and no more kids.

But people keep taking decision based on now and how much sex they want to have, incapable of even thinking of what could happen long term.

 

[Gman86]

Wait but this new Facebook group isn’t like a cult. We are trying to promote safe trt at excel. Those guys are down right reckless half the time. And very hypocritical. Danny starts quoting Dr mark Gordon in one breath but doesn’t believe in majority of the way dr mark practices medicine. Dr mark isn’t doing anything near what that Facebook group considers trt. Come on gman you’ve been around long enough to know what’s going on. That is more cult like then anyone over here. I do agree madman goes a little nuts with his tru t calculator but the guy genuinely try’s to help.

And I’m not against you guys doing what makes you happy but spreading misinformation like the last few posts and what tot group posts is crazy. People weren’t super humans 100 years ago we didn’t have the technology we have today to get shit done. They also didn’t live this go go go life and rested more we work like animals then come home and add more stress with tv video games internet. We are more on the move then ever.

Good points. What I do, no matter if it’s this forum, or the fb group, is take in all the information at hand, filter it using the knowledge I have in regards to the human body, and take away what I want from it, and leave the rest. I would never take anything someone says on here or the fb group as gospel. We all have to use our critical thinking skills to filter the information we are seeing. There’s great info here, and there’s also none-sense here. Same thing with the fb group. If you take everything as gospel from either place you’re gonna be in big trouble, and/ or very confused on what to do. But bottom line, we all have to find what works for us as individuals. I wouldn’t get too wrapped up in what other guys are doing with their bodies. I couldn’t care less what you guys do with your bodies. I’m just focused on being happy, and helping other men here find happiness as well, mostly in regards to hormone therapy.

 

[bixt]

Sustanon, nandrolone and DHT compounds for 2 years and a half, along with finasteride for 7 years to counteract one of the side effects. Because obviously you need more drugs to fight the side effects of drugs, right?

I really feel for you man, I really do. Nonetheless, 200mg a week vs Deca, Mast and Fina is hardly a fair comparison is it? There are tons of threads with those suffering from Deca dick, Fina dick and a 100 other sides.

Result: secondary hypogonadism, that has been resistant to every treatment apart from TRT, despite a healthy lifestyle.
Intolerant to HCG, which means possible infertility at 32 and no more kids.

I am committed to lifelong T injections due to the benefits brought to the table, you on the other have appear to have been relegated to them having no other option. Steroid abuse caused you to require TRT. In my case you are saying, TRT use will cause me to require TRT??

I have not heard of many intolerant to a couple months HCG \ FSH \ HMG use which is all thats needed to get fertile temporarily. Hell, even temporarily pausing TRT and jumping on clomid for a couple months usually produces fantastic results for male fertility and should be an option for you. Male fertility is NOT that hard for 99% of men.

 

[Appassionato]

I really feel for you man, I really do. Nonetheless, 200mg a week vs Deca, Mast and Fina is hardly a fair comparison is it? There are tons of threads with those suffering from Deca dick, Fina dick and a 100 other sides.



I am committed to lifelong T injections due to the benefits brought to the table, you on the other have appear to have been relegated to them having no other option. Steroid abuse caused you to require TRT. In my case you are saying, TRT use will cause me to require TRT??

I have not heard of many intolerant to a couple months HCG \ FSH \ HMG use which is all thats needed to get fertile temporarily. Hell, even temporarily pausing TRT and jumping on clomid for a couple months usually produces fantastic results for male fertility and should be an option for you. Male fertility is NOT that hard for 99% of men.

In your case, you don't know what 250mg of T per week will do on a long term, because that's not TRT. Dr. Crisler, who started his profession treating people coming out from steroid usage, was never going above 200 mg per week, saying he was using that as a protocol for someone with androgens resistance. After that he was calling it juicing, in his own words.
And he was a former steroid user himself.

I've run Deca by itself by the way, never mixed with anything else.
But my standard protocol was Sustanon along with Winstrol for 8 weeks on mild doses, very close to what some people are doing here on the forum: a testosterone compound stacked with a DHT compound to keep E2 at bay.
Never doing lab tests during cycles, because who cares, I was feeling good and having gains at the gym.

And no, Clomid and HCG are not an option for me, not even for 2 months because they shoot my E2 above 100 pg\mL and make me feel terrible. I went all the way down to 50 IU of HCG 3 times a week, and I was still having E2> 100
As I said, I'm an over responder to all medications.

That being said, it's your call, no one will persuade you to do the opposite, like no one did with me at that time.
But at least I would have got some blood work done.

 

[Charliebizz]

Theres "2019" normal and then theres 100 years ago normal. If you want to be an office cubicle sheep, then by all means, aim for 2019 normal. If you want to build an empire, aim for 100 years ago normal.

Why would you NOT want to feel the way your great grandfather did? I have yet to hear any reason for using today's ranges, as opposed to yesteryear's ranges.

Buddy it’s clear I’m not twisting anything those were your words

 

[Charliebizz]

We have a great group of guys with a lot of experience on this forum. No one has a hidden agenda to see you fail on here. All we are trying to say is you could have very well over shot a very manageable trt protocal. For this pipe dream you are going to feel amazing forever. Your misinterpreting what is being said here. You should read some of dr Marianos work on hormones and neurotransmitters. We have genetic set points of them and the body likes to find homeostasis. Obviously something went wrong to cause low t but overmedicating can work in the short term but more then likely your body will find other ways to slow you down. Testosterone effects nt in many ways. I for one and a bunch of other guys I’ve talked to over the years get very dull emotionally over time on trt. And I was on a tiny dose. 60mg per week. I’m also not against thinking outside the box. Mariano put me on to low dose ssri to combat low cortisol issues. Works wonders for me. But we all know how vilified ssri are. But I’m on a tiny dose and like you the risk is vs reward.

I’m not saying it’s not the answer for you but you ever heard of the saying too good to be true feeling amazing all the time just isn’t realistic.

And my biggest problems with this kind of information that the tot group is promoting is the danger in it for truly sick desperate guys. I’ve tried some really silly shit to try and get better. And it completely screwed up my recovery. I hate to see you cause any long term damage. But if your willing to risk it just to save time. Who am I to judge. I’m just clarifying it to others who might just stumble across posts like yours.

 

[DragonBits]

The total T range high end is now around 900. It was 1100 not to long ago and higher further back according to various posts. This is indisputable.

Extrapolating, I am pretty sure our great grandfathers on average had far higher levels than today. And how did they feel with these levels? I know they built businesses, did farm work on their own farms, fixed stuff and supported and led entire extended families under one roof. All of this suggests they had a far higher drive to be successful. They were also hot headed in general, with workers, family. To me that suggests high E2 as well, working along with the high T. Were there nuts working overdrive to "overmedicate" them? Did they have pituitary tumors flooding them with high LH?

Back to the present, I know that there are non TRT guys in society who naturally feel fantastic. I observe them everyday. Business leaders, CEOs, high ranking politicians and public figures. I have always aspired to have those levels of enthusiasm, drive and energy. Am I wrong for wanting these traits? Should I rather be content to be just another sheep? TOT\TRT\overmedicating , call it what you want the feeling is AWESOME!

Can I extrapolate back 2000 years and determine men must have had testosterone levels in the 10,000- 20,000 range?

You can't extrapolate.