When does estrogen become a concern?

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bixt

Well-Known Member
I simply started at 80mg as kept increasing every 6 weeks by 20mgor so until I reached 200-250mg which is where I feel well.

80 mg.....6 weeks later 120 mg.....6 weeks later 140 mg.....6 weeks later 160 mg.....6 weeks later 180 mg.....6 weeks later 200 mg.....6 weeks later 220 mg.....6 weeks later 240 mg.

40 weeks later.....really? (yes we can shorten this some as you did state....."I simply started at 80mg as kept increasing every 6 weeks by 20mgor so until I reached 200-250mg which is where I feel well"


How can you even state....."200-250mg which is where I feel well".....as you never gave your body a fighting chance to see how you truly feel on said protocol (T dose/injection frequency)..... you changed your dose every 6 weeks which is nowhere near enough time to truly gauge such.

As not only did you not have blood work done to see where your TT/FT and e2 levels sit but you kept upping your dose every 6 weeks and as you should know whenever one starts trt or is tweaking dose (increasing/decreasing) blood levels will be in FLUX during the following weeks leading up until when they have stabilized at 5-6 weeks and even than once levels have stabilized one would need to give it 2-3 months at new said T levels to not only allow the body to adjust to those new levels.....but to truly gauge how one feels overall regarding mood/energy/libido/erectile function/body composition/recovery.

6 weeks on said protocol (T dose/injection frequency) would in no way be enough time to state whether the TT/FT /e2 levels achieved truly result in overall improvement in low-t symptoms.....let alone overall well being.


Have never tested T, FT or E2, but I feel fantastic.

Sound like a sensible approach.....:rolleyes:!

No one could truly gauge a protocol (T dose/injection frequency).....let alone state they feel best at such T dose.....changing T dose every 6 weeks.....top it off with the fact that you have never tested your TT/FT/e2.....let alone the effects such levels have on your blood markers.

Just to be clear.....yes some men may very well need 200 mg/week or slightly higher to achieve a healthy FT level but needing such dose is not common for many men on trt.

Although symptom relief is what truly matters lab work is critical as not only do we want to know how said protocol (T dose/injection frequency) effects ones TT/FT levels but also to keep an eye on the impact it has on overall blood markers as we are not only trying to relieve/improve symptoms of low-t but to minimize/avoid any potential negative effects on overall health especially long-term.

Regarding reference ranges they are not set in stone and should be used as a guideline to give us an idea of where hormones/blood markers sit as levels could very well be too high or low resulting in negative effects.

There is nothing wrong with one running TT/FT levels above range as long as blood markers are healthy and you feel well overall.

No one is saying you have to keep your levels in a set range as the goal is to achieve the beneficial effects of having healthy FT levels while making sure overall health is maintained long term.

If you feel great on such dose than stick to your protocol but you should not be self treating yourself blindly by avoiding blood work.

It is naive for you to go on claiming you feel great at such dose when you never gave your body a chance because you were changing your dose every 6 weeks.....it is misleading.

This has been stated numerous times on the forum.....many are struggling because they are changing protocols (T dose/injection frequency) way too soon.....let alone in many cases changing too many things at once (use of an aromatase inhibitor/hCG).

I really dont have years to do such testing and wait 2-3 months between changes and spin my wheels like most others seem to do. I needed solutions NOW, and a solution I have found!

As you said many others are struggling by changing doses too often. Why mention that? I am having the time of my life!
 
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bixt

Well-Known Member
@bixt perfect example of one of the guys to just ignore. Don’t mind him. He hasn’t learned how to properly communicate with other humans yet.

You’ve found something that finally works for you. Just keep it going. I would try to see how close to 200mg/ week u can get without losing some of the positive effects that you’re experiencing, but other than that if it isn’t broke, don’t go trying to fix it.

He does have a good point about giving the body time to adapt, and regulate itself with the new levels of hormones. That’s why the only thing for you to try, imo, is to maybe start tapering down to see if you can find the minimum effective dose without losing the benefits that you’re currently experiencing.

@Gman86 's proposal is sensible. Taper down to find the lowest working dose, all the while FEELING WELL. The standard approach is to instead feel UNWELL for years while trying to get "dialed in". This is how madman would rather I felt.
 

madman

Super Moderator
@Gman86 's proposal is sensible. Taper down to find the lowest working dose, all the while FEELING WELL. The standard approach is to instead feel UNWELL for years while trying to get "dialed in". This is how madman would rather I felt.


You clearly missed the point on this one!

Your levels were in FLUX the majority of time.....you have no clue how you would feel on a lower dose.....every 6 weeks you upped your dose.....than go on and state you feel great at such dose.....seriously.

Would in no way take years if you had any sense in your head.
 

bixt

Well-Known Member
You clearly missed the point on this one!

Your levels were in FLUX the majority of time.....you have no clue how you would feel on a lower dose.....every 6 weeks you upped your dose.....than go on and state you feel great at such dose.....seriously.

Would in no way take years if you had any sense in your head.

@madman, actually you have totally missed the point! This thread is regarding estrogen becoming a concern, and I gave my anecdotes regarding the good mental effects of high E2, which I most certainly have, given my protocol which I also described.

I certainly didn't ask for your unsolicited "advice" or warnings, your 6 week theory of FLUX as you put it, or for your opinion or "help" on my protocol. End of day what Im doing works for me and I feel awesome with no side effects!! Im happy where I am, and will continue doing what Im doing.

If I were you I would stick to the topic, post regarding the topic, absorb others experiences, learn, and move along.
 

Charliebizz

Well-Known Member
Theres "2019" normal and then theres 100 years ago normal. If you want to be an office cubicle sheep, then by all means, aim for 2019 normal. If you want to build an empire, aim for 100 years ago normal.

Why would you NOT want to feel the way your great grandfather did? I have yet to hear any reason for using today's ranges, as opposed to yesteryear's ranges.
How exactly did my great grandfather feel ? This line of thinking is so flawed. Before most of us got low t we felt good. I’m I’m damn sure my t levels weren’t double the range when I was 20 years old.

You feel fantastic because you are most likely over medicated. But it’s your life and no reason not to live it the way you want. But that isn’t trt. Even the guys in that Facebook group call it tot because they know it’s not trt.

It works for some and can get others in tons of trouble. 120mg a week makes me feel like absolute hell. Raises my blood pressure, I snore,tinnitus,anxiety,frequent urination,muscle fasculations just to name a few. So this danny bossa approach of just not wasting time and starting at 200mg a week is borderline reckless. What madman is trying to say is you could have very well overshot your Mark because your not waiting long enough on a protocal. You could very well feel this great on 150 but you didn’t give it time. He also could be wrong and 250 might be what you need.

We are all different I am very sensitive to hrt it hasn’t even remotely worked out for me. So I’m not saying this isn’t right for you but I’m not a fan of the fast track approach since we don’t have much real data on long term effects of running those high free t and dht numbers. But I’m no way saying that it’s not working for you and I’m happy it is. I hope you continue to feel good and follow up with us.
 

bixt

Well-Known Member
How exactly did my great grandfather feel ? This line of thinking is so flawed. Before most of us got low t we felt good. I’m I’m damn sure my t levels weren’t double the range when I was 20 years old.

You feel fantastic because you are most likely over medicated.

The total T range high end is now around 900. It was 1100 not to long ago and higher further back according to various posts. This is indisputable.

Extrapolating, I am pretty sure our great grandfathers on average had far higher levels than today. And how did they feel with these levels? I know they built businesses, did farm work on their own farms, fixed stuff and supported and led entire extended families under one roof. All of this suggests they had a far higher drive to be successful. They were also hot headed in general, with workers, family. To me that suggests high E2 as well, working along with the high T. Were there nuts working overdrive to "overmedicate" them? Did they have pituitary tumors flooding them with high LH?

Back to the present, I know that there are non TRT guys in society who naturally feel fantastic. I observe them everyday. Business leaders, CEOs, high ranking politicians and public figures. I have always aspired to have those levels of enthusiasm, drive and energy. Am I wrong for wanting these traits? Should I rather be content to be just another sheep? TOT\TRT\overmedicating , call it what you want the feeling is AWESOME!
 

bixt

Well-Known Member
[QUOTE=" It works for some and can get others in tons of trouble. 120mg a week makes me feel like absolute hell. Raises my blood pressure, I snore,tinnitus,anxiety,frequent urination,muscle fasculations just to name a few. We are all different I am very sensitive to hrt it hasn’t even remotely worked out for me.[/QUOTE]

I can truly empathize with you, having been in a place before prior to testosterone where nothing worked. I am really sad that HRT is not working for you and I wish you all the best in finding a solution my friend. Never give up. If you are determined enough the solution will show itself sooner or later.
 

equel

Active Member
The total T range high end is now around 900. It was 1100 not to long ago and higher further back according to various posts. This is indisputable.

Extrapolating, I am pretty sure our great grandfathers on average had far higher levels than today. And how did they feel with these levels? I know they built businesses, did farm work on their own farms, fixed stuff and supported and led entire extended families under one roof. All of this suggests they had a far higher drive to be successful. They were also hot headed in general, with workers, family. To me that suggests high E2 as well, working along with the high T. Were there nuts working overdrive to "overmedicate" them? Did they have pituitary tumors flooding them with high LH?

Back to the present, I know that there are non TRT guys in society who naturally feel fantastic. I observe them everyday. Business leaders, CEOs, high ranking politicians and public figures. I have always aspired to have those levels of enthusiasm, drive and energy. Am I wrong for wanting these traits? Should I rather be content to be just another sheep? TOT\TRT\overmedicating , call it what you want the feeling is AWESOME!

No, levels 50 years ago, average was 500-1000ng/dl. Do you even know what you are saying?
 

Vtail

Active Member
FWIW - I'm 56 yrs old and did not get T tested until last year when I was able to convince my doc that something was not right. My Total T was 430 [264-916] and Free T was 7 [7.2-24] - nothing else of relevance was tested due to my and my doctors ignorance. I've spent the last year "dialing in" with moderate success. I have 2 boys that are in good health and very fit (27 yrs and 30 yrs). They workout with weights often, more for strength than bodybuilding, and as far as I know they do not take any supplements that would impact their T levels. They are both very strong. I recently asked them to get tested so that they would have a baseline for the future, and also I wanted to know where they are at now, in their prime, and I would try to use that as a target for myself (rather than keep shooting in the dark). These are their results:

27 yr old: Total Test 651 [160-853], Free T 11.9 [3.5-15.5], SHBG 38 [10-57]
30 yr old: Total Test 614 [249-836], Free T 52 [35-92], SHBG 40 [16-55], E 20 [8-35]

In my case, when I got my Total T to ~630, my Free T was 10 [True T] and E was 36 [8-35]. When my Total T was 900, my Free T was 23 [7-24] E was about 45 [8-35]. So while I realize there is not enough data here to draw any real conclusions, it seem as though from injections I'm not getting as much conversion to Free T as my kids are, but my E is proportionally higher. My SHBG was not tested prior to starting TRT, however over the last year it has ranged from 30 - 36.
 

Charliebizz

Well-Known Member
The total T range high end is now around 900. It was 1100 not to long ago and higher further back according to various posts. This is indisputable.

Extrapolating, I am pretty sure our great grandfathers on average had far higher levels than today. And how did they feel with these levels? I know they built businesses, did farm work on their own farms, fixed stuff and supported and led entire extended families under one roof. All of this suggests they had a far higher drive to be successful. They were also hot headed in general, with workers, family. To me that suggests high E2 as well, working along with the high T. Were there nuts working overdrive to "overmedicate" them? Did they have pituitary tumors flooding them with high LH?

Back to the present, I know that there are non TRT guys in society who naturally feel fantastic. I observe them everyday. Business leaders, CEOs, high ranking politicians and public figures. I have always aspired to have those levels of enthusiasm, drive and energy. Am I wrong for wanting these traits? Should I rather be content to be just another sheep? TOT\TRT\overmedicating , call it what you want the feeling is AWESOME!
you can’t chock that up to to hormones all the time. I’m a lot of things you described and my total t natural is 211. Some things are just personality traits. And come on so your saying everyone was alpha men go getters back in the day. That statement is just full of assumptions.

And if your theory about the modern day alpha males. So either all of them are on trt or they all have levels double the range. I think not. And also with that logic how did we make the biggest leaps in technology and progress so fast in the last 20 years with thes low levels of t. Come on guys your teaching way to much here.


I’m tall thick full beard,aggressive, great career don’t take shit from no one kind of guy. And I’ve had low t for 10+ years. I def agree low t effects certain aspects of my life and I 100% have to try harder then most to get shit done but trt hasn’t helped me personally in that regard anyway
 

Gman86

Member
@Gman86 's proposal is sensible. Taper down to find the lowest working dose, all the while FEELING WELL. The standard approach is to instead feel UNWELL for years while trying to get "dialed in". This is how madman would rather I felt.

I wouldn’t go as far as saying that lol. But you’re half correct. He would rather see you follow the “rules” of TRT, than feel good, which is ridiculous, and cult/ religious like behavior, imo.
 

SilverSurfer

Active Member
I have baseline testosterone tests from the age of 25 and every 5 years thereafter. My range was
No, levels 50 years ago, average was 500-1000ng/dl. Do you even know what you are saying?

Not to mention the average life expectancy of a white male born in 1850 was 38 years old, and in 1890 was 42.5. This bs about what our diets, nutrition, and ideals were from a couple hundred years or more ago is “green pasture syndrome”.
 

Gman86

Member
I have baseline testosterone tests from the age of 25 and every 5 years thereafter. My range was


Not to mention the average life expectancy of a white male born in 1850 was 38 years old, and in 1890 was 42.5. This bs about what our diets, nutrition, and ideals were from a couple hundred years or more ago is “green pasture syndrome”.

What was your range? It looks like it got cut off
 

Appassionato

Active Member
I have baseline testosterone tests from the age of 25 and every 5 years thereafter. My range was


Not to mention the average life expectancy of a white male born in 1850 was 38 years old, and in 1890 was 42.5. This bs about what our diets, nutrition, and ideals were from a couple hundred years or more ago is “green pasture syndrome”.

I was about to do a post with the same content, but you actually did the work for me.
Thanks.

The great grandfather testosterone levels theory is so flawed and generic that I don't even understand how you can base your treatment on it.

And let me share my experience. I've been on sustanon and DHT compounds in my early 20s, always low or moderate cycles, and it felt great for the first year.
Then the side effects started kicking in, that brought to finasteride usage and both together brought to the hell I've been through since I was 25.

You guys said you prefer to live a good life until 60 rather than 90 unwell. Fair enough.
But where did you get the insurance you'll get to 60? Several amateur body builders got an angina pectoris in their 30s. And I'm not talking about pros doing several compounds all together. I'm talking about people competing in local competitions.

I would at least get a lab work done if I was you, even just to know where are your levels to understand what makes you feel good.
 
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