Do pro BBer's who use much more T (often year around) than TRT patients, complain about the roller coaster symptoms and problems getting dialed in that TRT patients do? Many TRT patients state that too much T is giving them symptoms. Do the pros have these same symptoms using super high doses? If not, why? Thanks.
Systemlord
Member
Perhaps the pro's don't complain of symptoms because they are taking 1mg AI daily, then step onto a dexa scan several months later because of bone pain and see bone loss.
I think it's kind of like comparing apples and oranges. Many of the pros today are taking 1g of T per week, or ~10X what many on TRT are taking. Thus, the bodybuilders will certainly experience more long-term side effects, but they also experience more short-term benefits, and many become fixated on those benefits.
They only complain about the side effects, from what I've seen, when they're cycled off or doing PCT.
They only complain about the side effects, from what I've seen, when they're cycled off or doing PCT.
Exactly what I was getting at. TRT patients who feel like they are dying or dead, but can't seem to dial in could possibly (finally) feel good by taking extreme doses of T, possibly to their long term detriment. Regarding AI, is that necessary to feel good if you are taking such extreme T dosages? It would seem that E at some point couldn't keep up with T. Can you have an E of 1000? Meaning, you might have physical signs of very high E, but feel amazing because the T so much higher.
Yes. I think more T would often fix problems in the short-term.
As far as the AI, that is a point of much debate. My opinion (and the opinion of others) is that high SHBG guys like myself can do fine with very high E numbers. Low SHBG guys tend to feel better when they control E. That's an overgeneralization, but it seems to apply often.
As far as the AI, that is a point of much debate. My opinion (and the opinion of others) is that high SHBG guys like myself can do fine with very high E numbers. Low SHBG guys tend to feel better when they control E. That's an overgeneralization, but it seems to apply often.
I follow many pro BBer's and I don't think they could get out of bed let alone work out like they do if they didn't feel pretty good. I'm sugesting there may be something we can learn from their use/abuse. Some on TRT who can't seem to dial in can't even get out of bed let alone train. Long term health aside, that isn't any way to live either.
I know exactly what you’re saying. I wonder the exact same thing all the time. I’m always trying to figure out why many of them report feeling like “Superman” on these insane dosages, and a lot of them report not needing an ai as long as they keep their dose under like 500mg/ week. Then some guys on TRT report crazy E2 symptoms taking 150ng/ week, or less. Maybe it has to do with the other compounds that they run with it? For instance, there’s another common steroid that lowers E2, I forget which one. But I’ve honestly wondered your exact original question so many times.
I don't know too much about Bodybuilding per se, but my belief is that the answer to the OP's underlying question is that, at physiological levels of TT we need the 2 metabolites (DHT and E2) to be in balance, and that as TT is increased to supra-physiological levels that balance will eventually become moot.
In other words, at TRT doses of exogenous T we need to attain an adequate level of TT, and keep our sex hormones in balance ("dialled in").
Whereas, at Bodybuilding doses of T, there is a surfeit of hormones in serum, at receptor and in tissue, rendering balance unnecessary.
In other words, at TRT doses of exogenous T we need to attain an adequate level of TT, and keep our sex hormones in balance ("dialled in").
Whereas, at Bodybuilding doses of T, there is a surfeit of hormones in serum, at receptor and in tissue, rendering balance unnecessary.
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Airborne Warrior
Active Member
I'd put my house on most if not all pro's blasting and cruising nowadays and never conducting PCT.
This is an interesting point, because there are saturation levels for creation of both estradiol and DHT. In this paper they found that the average maximum possible estradiol level in younger men was 101 pg/mL. In older men it was 138 pg/mL. For DHT the figures are 161 ng/dL and 269, respectively.
First off, symptoms are things that the patient feels. So, right from the start this is subjective. There is the placebo effect and the nocebo effect. Placebo effects are things that the patient feels that are not from the compound ingested - its from the mind. Nocebo effects are things that the patient does not notice because the mind is preventing the patient from noticing.
BBers are focused on the results from anabolics. They intentionally or unintentionally ignore the side effects of testosterone or other anabolics. If they do notice them, the process this as a cost of doing business. Thus, they tend to not complain about sides.
Men are TRT who are not BBers are cut from a different cloth. They are in this purely for health. They tend to be more likely to be instrospective and notice changes. They seem to be to be more supseptible to the placebo effect. I have had friends take lowish doses of TRT and claim roid rage. When in effect, they have no more anger than pre TRT. They are just looking for something bad, and so they find it. - I call in the mother-in-law effect. LOL.
I hope that helpes
BBers are focused on the results from anabolics. They intentionally or unintentionally ignore the side effects of testosterone or other anabolics. If they do notice them, the process this as a cost of doing business. Thus, they tend to not complain about sides.
Men are TRT who are not BBers are cut from a different cloth. They are in this purely for health. They tend to be more likely to be instrospective and notice changes. They seem to be to be more supseptible to the placebo effect. I have had friends take lowish doses of TRT and claim roid rage. When in effect, they have no more anger than pre TRT. They are just looking for something bad, and so they find it. - I call in the mother-in-law effect. LOL.
I hope that helpes
That's hilarious. People seem so desperate to find evidence of roid rage in themselves, probably based on misleading accounts in the media and entertainment.
It's a little different: "A nocebo effect is said to occur when negative expectations of the patient regarding a treatment cause the treatment to have a more negative effect than it otherwise would have." Wikipedia
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