TRT related strength, muscle and body composition

[TestOneTwo]

We’ve just been talking about this in another thread and thought to start a new thread on it.

First of all, just to get that out of the way, I did not go on TRT for muscle building or performance reasons. I just wanted to feel better and I now do so I consider it a success already. However, my own perceived improvements in the titled areas are modest, if not non existent and I wonder if there’s more to be had.
Been on TRT for 4 months now. My strength hasn’t improved a bit. In fact, since starting it I experience fluctuations of up to 15%, alas only down, never up. There is no discernible pattern behind it in terms of injection times etc. Muscle volume had increased slightly in the beginning, of course, due to water retention but that’s going down now. I’m currently in the process of shedding some fat and TRT may or may not prove useful for muscle retention, too early to say.

Labs from 2 months ago, 140mg/wk, E3.5

HCT 51.7
TT 622 ng/dL (264-916) from 275 pre TRT
FT 25.1 pg/ml (6.8-21.5) from 12.5 pre TRT
15.4 nmol/L (16.5-55.9) from 25.7 pre TRT

Switched to EOD about 7 weeks ago and like it so far. No labs yet on this regime.
Due to paranoia of running out I always pull a tiny little bit less T out of the vial which I noticed adds up so I’m effectively only using about 126mg/week now. The other reason why I changed protocol to EOD was I would like TT to be in the 850 area without increasing the overall dose.

Body stats:

6’4”
259 lbs
16%

I have visible abs but I’m one of these lucky (or unlucky, see below) guys that have visible abs from 18%. Why unlucky? Well my fat seems to be under the muscle, visceral to be exact which is far worse, hence my wish to drop BF but it’s actually relatively easy for me. My natural state is skinny and that‘s what my body always pulls towards.
The only thing that changed when I went on TRT was that I’ve added about 12lbs of water weight a couple of weeks in. I was 264 at its highest and it’s now slowly coming down. Perhaps a liiiittle bit of vascularity, mind you I’m not a vascular guy to begin with so anything is welcome.

Now, due to lack of access to my gym during the COVID lockdown I can only talk about what happened up until then and what I can gauge now by using strength indicators like pull-ups and to some degree pushups. It seems to be still the same as my pull up abilities are fluctuation wildly, way more than they ever did pre TRT.

So gentlemen, what are your experiences?

 

[fifty]

If you’re strength goes down on trt then you’re doing something wrong.

What syringes are you using and what is your lifting program?

 

[TestOneTwo]

1ml Insulin 27g 1/2” IM delts. My lifting program hasn‘t changed from pre TRT. 4x week push pull mix centered around compounds. My logic was that if I was able to make progress before TRT it should at the very least be the same ON TRT. In fact, the type of fluctuation I’m currently experiencing I only know from times when I dealt with an infection. A sudden 10-15% drop used to be my early and fail proof indicator that I was about to come down with something. Not even sleep deprivation used to cause that.

 

[fifty]

If you're using fixed needle insulin syringes like EasyTouch I wouldn't worry about any waste on your doses.

If you're strength is going down, take a week easy meaning 2 main workouts (instead of 4) that week at a lower volume then super easy stuff on the other days if you must do something. I would imagine you'd be getting some effect like this given the current covid lockdown.

When your strength goes down, you usually need to do less for a short period of time, not more more more.

Also make sure you are changing your exercises so you have some variety every month or two.

 

[TestOneTwo]

If you're using fixed needle insulin syringes like EasyTouch I wouldn't worry about any waste on your doses.

If you're strength is going down, take a week easy meaning 2 main workouts (instead of 4) that week at a lower volume then super easy stuff on the other days if you must do something. I would imagine you'd be getting some effect like this given the current covid lockdown.

When your strength goes down, you usually need to do less for a short period of time, not more more more.

Also make sure you are changing your exercises so you have some variety every month or two.

I agree, less is often more. The fluctuations typically show best in my compound “strength indicator” exercises: Pull ups, dips, squats. Yeah that forced break from the gym is in some ways an extended recovery period. The exercises I’m doing right now are taxing but they are more bodyweight based. Definitely the opposite of fun but I keep my heart rate higher up so it’s pushing me in the cardio vascular department which is never bad. I can feel I will lose quite a bit of muscle in addition to the fat during the lockdown but I will prob also emerge a little fitter.

 

[Vince]

We’ve just been talking about this in another thread and thought to start a new thread on it.

First of all, just to get that out of the way, I did not go on TRT for muscle building or performance reasons. I just wanted to feel better and I now do so I consider it a success already. However, my own perceived improvements in the titled areas are modest, if not non existent and I wonder if there’s more to be had.
Been on TRT for 4 months now. My strength hasn’t improved a bit. In fact, since starting it I experience fluctuations of up to 15%, alas only down, never up. There is no discernible pattern behind it in terms of injection times etc. Muscle volume had increased slightly in the beginning, of course, due to water retention but that’s going down now. I’m currently in the process of shedding some fat and TRT may or may not prove useful for muscle retention, too early to say.

Labs from 2 months ago, 140mg/wk, E3.5

HCT 51.7
TT 622 ng/dL (264-916) from 275 pre TRT
FT 25.1 pg/ml (6.8-21.5) from 12.5 pre TRT
15.4 nmol/L (16.5-55.9) from 25.7 pre TRT

Switched to EOD about 7 weeks ago and like it so far. No labs yet on this regime.
Due to paranoia of running out I always pull a tiny little bit less T out of the vial which I noticed adds up so I’m effectively only using about 126mg/week now. The other reason why I changed protocol to EOD was I would like TT to be in the 850 area without increasing the overall dose.

Body stats:

6’4”
259 lbs
16%

I have visible abs but I’m one of these lucky (or unlucky, see below) guys that have visible abs from 18%. Why unlucky? Well my fat seems to be under the muscle, visceral to be exact which is far worse, hence my wish to drop BF but it’s actually relatively easy for me. My natural state is skinny and that‘s what my body always pulls towards.
The only thing that changed when I went on TRT was that I’ve added about 12lbs of water weight a couple of weeks in. I was 264 at its highest and it’s now slowly coming down. Perhaps a liiiittle bit of vascularity, mind you I’m not a vascular guy to begin with so anything is welcome.

Now, due to lack of access to my gym during the COVID lockdown I can only talk about what happened up until then and what I can gauge now by using strength indicators like pull-ups and to some degree pushups. It seems to be still the same as my pull up abilities are fluctuation wildly, way more than they ever did pre TRT.

So gentlemen, what are your experiences?

What is the testosterone dose for muscle gain?

Some of the guys I work out with know that i inject T. It has come up why then do I not put on more gains, I do heavy rssitance training and little cardio. I explained that I am on a theraputic dose. Shoot I take a paltry 30 mg twice a week to keep red blood cells in line, so i could never...

www.excelmale.com

 

[TestOneTwo]

What is the testosterone dose for muscle gain?

Some of the guys I work out with know that i inject T. It has come up why then do I not put on more gains, I do heavy rssitance training and little cardio. I explained that I am on a theraputic dose. Shoot I take a paltry 30 mg twice a week to keep red blood cells in line, so i could never...

www.excelmale.com

Thanks but I‘ve had read that thread already. It’s interesting no doubt and the gist of it seems to be that at least according to a study 125mg are enough to see muscle development. The rest is less helpful though, lots of talk about that it needs 200mg+ to see a difference anyway while others being on full blown mini cycles talk about their experiences yeah and after that it turns into an off topic peptide talk for some reason.. This isn’t really what I’m looking for. I’d like to hear from people who are currently on common doses and that had realistic expectations to begin with. What have been their experiences? How has it affected their training, if any, and when? I’d rather skip supra-discussions since I’ll never be interested in reaching such levels.

 

[Vince]

Thanks but I‘ve had read that thread already. It’s interesting no doubt and the gist of it seems to be that at least according to a study 125mg are enough to see muscle development. The rest is less helpful though, lots of talk about that it needs 200mg+ to see a difference anyway while others being on full blown mini cycles talk about their experiences yeah and after that it turns into an off topic peptide talk for some reason.. This isn’t really what I’m looking for. I’d like to hear from people who are currently on common doses and that had realistic expectations to begin with. What have been their experiences? How has it affected their training, if any, and when? I’d rather skip supra-discussions since I’ll never be interested in reaching such levels.

Then I guess you probably read this to, but here it goes.

Changes in fat mass, lean body mass, and muscle strength occur within 12-16 weeks, stabilize at 6-12 months, but marginally continue to improve over years.

 

[Vince]

We’ve just been talking about this in another thread and thought to start a new thread on it.

First of all, just to get that out of the way, I did not go on TRT for muscle building or performance reasons. I just wanted to feel better and I now do so I consider it a success already. However, my own perceived improvements in the titled areas are modest, if not non existent and I wonder if there’s more to be had.
Been on TRT for 4 months now. My strength hasn’t improved a bit. In fact, since starting it I experience fluctuations of up to 15%, alas only down, never up. There is no discernible pattern behind it in terms of injection times etc. Muscle volume had increased slightly in the beginning, of course, due to water retention but that’s going down now. I’m currently in the process of shedding some fat and TRT may or may not prove useful for muscle retention, too early to say.

Labs from 2 months ago, 140mg/wk, E3.5

HCT 51.7
TT 622 ng/dL (264-916) from 275 pre TRT
FT 25.1 pg/ml (6.8-21.5) from 12.5 pre TRT
15.4 nmol/L (16.5-55.9) from 25.7 pre TRT

Switched to EOD about 7 weeks ago and like it so far. No labs yet on this regime.
Due to paranoia of running out I always pull a tiny little bit less T out of the vial which I noticed adds up so I’m effectively only using about 126mg/week now. The other reason why I changed protocol to EOD was I would like TT to be in the 850 area without increasing the overall dose.

Body stats:

6’4”
259 lbs
16%

I have visible abs but I’m one of these lucky (or unlucky, see below) guys that have visible abs from 18%. Why unlucky? Well my fat seems to be under the muscle, visceral to be exact which is far worse, hence my wish to drop BF but it’s actually relatively easy for me. My natural state is skinny and that‘s what my body always pulls towards.
The only thing that changed when I went on TRT was that I’ve added about 12lbs of water weight a couple of weeks in. I was 264 at its highest and it’s now slowly coming down. Perhaps a liiiittle bit of vascularity, mind you I’m not a vascular guy to begin with so anything is welcome.

Now, due to lack of access to my gym during the COVID lockdown I can only talk about what happened up until then and what I can gauge now by using strength indicators like pull-ups and to some degree pushups. It seems to be still the same as my pull up abilities are fluctuation wildly, way more than they ever did pre TRT.

So gentlemen, what are your experiences?

So your protocol is, 36 mg of testosterone cypionate every other day? That's all you take nothing else, no AI, No HCG. What's your shpg and estradiol sitting at.

 

[TestOneTwo]

So your protocol is, 36 mg of testosterone cypionate every other day? That's all you take nothing else, no AI, No HCG. What's your shpg and estradiol sitting at.

Yup, I never noticed that my tiny reductions per pull amounted to that much. I’m effectively on 36mg/EOD down from 70mg/E3.5D

SHBG currently sits at about 15 and E2 @ 24.4 Mind you these are labs from my 70mg E3.5D regime. I’d assume things have changed a little since I’d switched to EOD about 7 weeks ago.

 

[Vince]

Yup, I never noticed that my tiny reductions per pull amounted to that much. I’m effectively on 36mg/EOD down from 70mg/E3.5D

SHBG currently sits at about 15 and E2 @ 24.4 Mind you these are labs from my 70mg E3.5D regime. I’d assume things have changed a little since I’d switched to EOD about 7 weeks ago.

Have you considered adding and some HCG? It may help raise your estradiol some. Higher estradiol levels are good for building muscle and as we all know it helps with libido.

 

[Vince]

The Benefits of Estrogen in BodyBuilding

Once again, an excellent article from Anabolic.org Glucose Utilization and Estrogen Estrogen may play a very important role in the promotion of an anabolic state by affecting glucose utilization in muscle tissue. This occurs via an altering of the level of available glucose 6-phosphate...

www.excelmale.com

 

[TestOneTwo]

Have you considered adding and some HCG? It may help raise your estradiol some. Higher estradiol levels are good for building muscle and as we all know it helps with libido.

Hmm interesting point, thanks. HCG is something I have put on the back burner since I have no valid reason to take it. I’d rather not introduce another variable, at least not before I’m not fully dialed in. I agree I might potentially benefit from slightly higher E2 so I guess the next best thing to do would be upping my T dose. At 622 I’m not precisely on a crazy high level to begin with and since I’d like to be around 850 anyway I might kill two birds with a stone since this would inevitably increase my E2 also.

What bugs me is that this is pretty much what I already wanted to do about 2 months ago. Unfortunately, I didn’t get green light for a slight increase, not sure why. The answer was something along the lines of no it will not help more and might only make you feel worse again. I would have appreciated a little leeway for experimentation but what can you do. That was the primary reason why I switched to EOD following that: To up my trough. Probably not helping much with increasing E2 though. Also, I like to believe my joints and tendons would enjoy a little more E2 also.

On a related note, if I upped my EOD dose back from 36mg to 40mg, will it even make a difference and also, will a 10% increase cause my body go back into a 6 week readjustment limbo?

 

[Vince]

Hmm interesting point, thanks. HCG is something I have put on the back burner since I have no valid reason to take it. I’d rather not introduce another variable, at least not before I’m not fully dialed in. I agree I might potentially benefit from slightly higher E2 so I guess the next best thing to do would be upping my T dose. At 622 I’m not precisely on a crazy high level to begin with and since I’d like to be around 850 anyway I might kill two birds with a stone since this would inevitably increase my E2 also.

What bugs me is that this is pretty much what I already wanted to do about 2 months ago. Unfortunately, I didn’t get green light for a slight increase, not sure why. The answer was something along the lines of no it will not help more and might only make you feel worse again. I would have appreciated a little leeway for experimentation but what can you do. That was the primary reason why I switched to EOD following that: To up my trough. Probably not helping much with increasing E2 though. Also, I like to believe my joints and tendons would enjoy a little more E2 also.

On a related note, if I upped my EOD dose back from 36mg to 40mg, will it even make a difference and also, will a 10% increase cause my body go back into a 6 week readjustment limbo?

I'm surprised your doctor won't up your dose. Your T levels are not very high. With having lower shpg, more frequent injections should help.

 

[Duece12345]

We’ve just been talking about this in another thread and thought to start a new thread on it.

First of all, just to get that out of the way, I did not go on TRT for muscle building or performance reasons. I just wanted to feel better and I now do so I consider it a success already. However, my own perceived improvements in the titled areas are modest, if not non existent and I wonder if there’s more to be had.
Been on TRT for 4 months now. My strength hasn’t improved a bit. In fact, since starting it I experience fluctuations of up to 15%, alas only down, never up. There is no discernible pattern behind it in terms of injection times etc. Muscle volume had increased slightly in the beginning, of course, due to water retention but that’s going down now. I’m currently in the process of shedding some fat and TRT may or may not prove useful for muscle retention, too early to say.

Labs from 2 months ago, 140mg/wk, E3.5

HCT 51.7
TT 622 ng/dL (264-916) from 275 pre TRT
FT 25.1 pg/ml (6.8-21.5) from 12.5 pre TRT
15.4 nmol/L (16.5-55.9) from 25.7 pre TRT

Switched to EOD about 7 weeks ago and like it so far. No labs yet on this regime.
Due to paranoia of running out I always pull a tiny little bit less T out of the vial which I noticed adds up so I’m effectively only using about 126mg/week now. The other reason why I changed protocol to EOD was I would like TT to be in the 850 area without increasing the overall dose.

Body stats:

6’4”
259 lbs
16%

I have visible abs but I’m one of these lucky (or unlucky, see below) guys that have visible abs from 18%. Why unlucky? Well my fat seems to be under the muscle, visceral to be exact which is far worse, hence my wish to drop BF but it’s actually relatively easy for me. My natural state is skinny and that‘s what my body always pulls towards.
The only thing that changed when I went on TRT was that I’ve added about 12lbs of water weight a couple of weeks in. I was 264 at its highest and it’s now slowly coming down. Perhaps a liiiittle bit of vascularity, mind you I’m not a vascular guy to begin with so anything is welcome.

Now, due to lack of access to my gym during the COVID lockdown I can only talk about what happened up until then and what I can gauge now by using strength indicators like pull-ups and to some degree pushups. It seems to be still the same as my pull up abilities are fluctuation wildly, way more than they ever did pre TRT.

So gentlemen, what are your experiences?

6’4” 260lbs is skinny?! Man, thats NFL linebacker size. I need some of that skinny! kidding man I too am a skinny guy, 6’1” 195lbs with a water weight problem. Tried everything it just won’t come off the mid section. I am a little let down I have been lifting for 15yrs and trt sent me in the opposite direction! I am only 7 weeks in so I am seeing what happens. I have had great “gains” in the mood, libido dept.

 

[TestOneTwo]

6’4” 260lbs is skinny?! Man, thats NFL linebacker size. I need some of that skinny! kidding man I too am a skinny guy, 6’1” 195lbs with a water weight problem. Tried everything it just won’t come off the mid section. I am a little let down I have been lifting for 15yrs and trt sent me in the opposite direction! I am only 7 weeks in so I am seeing what happens. I have had great “gains” in the mood, libido dept.

Haha well I'm naturally skinny with endlessly long limbs. If I didn't train like crazy and generally ate insane amounts of food I wouldn't have moved much from my natural <200lbs state. Also, I have about 10lbs extra water weight from T plus another 4-5lbs from creatine.
It adds up. I find it way more difficult to gain weight than to lose it although years ago I started noticing my worrying tendency of sporting a bit of a belly while being otherwise slim. The dreaded skinny fat state!! So yeah I hear you. It's interesting that your lifting results went South too. What dosage are you on and do you know your BF%?

 

[TestOneTwo]

I'm surprised your doctor won't up your dose. Your T levels are not very high. With having lower shpg, more frequent injections should help.

I might have my next consultation with someone else. It's a shame really since I've been otherwise happy with my provider. Do you think I'd feel that 10% top up negatively for a couple of weeks?

 

[Vince]

I might have my next consultation with someone else. It's a shame really since I've been otherwise happy with my provider. Do you think I'd feel that 10% top up negatively for a couple of weeks?

When I started trt, my first protocol was 70 mg of testosterone cypionate twice a week and 500 IU of HCG twice a week. I felt the honeymoon with my first injection, it was a unbelievable experience. After that I just felt good, which is okay with me.

 

[Duece12345]

Haha well I'm naturally skinny with endlessly long limbs. If I didn't train like crazy and generally ate insane amounts of food I wouldn't have moved much from my natural <200lbs state. Also, I have about 10lbs extra water weight from T plus another 4-5lbs from creatine.
It adds up. I find it way more difficult to gain weight than to lose it although years ago I started noticing my worrying tendency of sporting a bit of a belly while being otherwise slim. The dreaded skinny fat state!! So yeah I hear you. It's interesting that your lifting results went South too. What dosage are you on and do you know your BF%?

Started too high (for me at least) of 75mg 2x a week and had to go to 55mg 2x a week. Numbers are good now, 600@trough, E2 25. Gym work has been good too. Nothing crazy but some strength and endurance gains. I have never actually had my bf tested, but I had (pre water retention) flat stomach with some abs thrown in. Those are gone now :-(

 

[TestOneTwo]

Started too high (for me at least) of 75mg 2x a week and had to go to 55mg 2x a week. Numbers are good now, 600@trough, E2 25. Gym work has been good too. Nothing crazy but some strength and endurance gains. I have never actually had my bf tested, but I had (pre water retention) flat stomach with some abs thrown in. Those are gone now :-(

The water seems to slowly disappear now. You are 2 months or so behind me so have hope! Your numbers are similar to mine. What made you feel you were running too high?