The Benefits of Estrogen in BodyBuilding

Nelson Vergel

Founder, ExcelMale.com
Thread starter #1
Once again, an excellent article from Anabolic.org


Glucose Utilization and Estrogen

Estrogen may play a very important role in the promotion of an anabolic state by affecting glucose utilization in muscle tissue. This occurs via an altering of the level of available glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase, an enzyme directly tied to the use of glucose for muscle tissue growth and recuperation


Estrogen and GH/IGF-1

Estrogen may also play an important role in the production of growth hormone and IGF-1. IGF-1 (insulin-like growth factor) is an anabolic hormone released in the liver and various peripheral tissues via the stimulus of growth hormone (See Drug Profiles: Growth Hormone). IGF-1 is responsible for the anabolic activity of growth hormone such as increased nitrogen retention/protein synthesis and cell hyperplasia (proliferation).

Estrogen and the Androgen Receptor

It has also been demonstrated that estrogen can increase the concentration of androgen receptors in certain tissues. This was shown in studies with rats, which looked at the effects of estrogen on cellular androgen receptors in animals that underwent orchiectomy (removal of testes, often done to diminish endogenous androgen production). According to the study, administration of estrogen resulted in a striking 480% increase in methyltrienolone (a potent oral androgen often used to reference receptor binding in studies) binding in the levator ani muscle

Estrogen and Fatigue

“Steroid Fatigue” is a common catchphrase these days, and refers to another important function of estrogen in both the male and female body, namely its ability to promote wakefulness and a mentally alert state. Given the common availability of potent third-generation aromatase inhibitors, bodybuilders today are (at times) noticing more extreme estrogen suppression than they had in the past. Often associated with this suppression is fatigue. Under such conditions, the athlete, though on a productive cycle of drugs, may not be able to maximize his or her gains due to an inability to train at full vigor. This effect is sometimes also dubbed “steroid lethargy.” The reason is that estrogen plays an important supporting role in the activity of serotonin. Serotonin is one of the body’s principle neurotransmitters, vital to mental alertness and the sleep/wake cycle

...if (high estrogen) problems have not presented themselves, the added estrogen due to a cycle of testosterone or Dianabol, for example, might indeed be aiding in the buildup of muscle mass, or keeping you energetic.

© 2015 Anabolic.org. Read more Anabolic Steroids & Substance Info at: http://www.anabolic.org/aromatization/
 

Nelson Vergel

Founder, ExcelMale.com
Thread starter #2
Another good article on estradiol and aromatase inhibitors in bodybuilding.

"Truthfully, it is impossible to state whether anyone has been harmed by using aromatase inhibitors for performance- or physique-enhancement; it simply is not tracked. These two drugs are oral (a similar drug, Aromasin®, is injected); they generally do not cause physically perceived, short-term symptoms; and they are rarely used long-term. These factors instill a false sense of security in users.

Yet, there are problems that may arise as a result of aromatase inhibition, particularly aggressive aromatase inhibition that suppresses estrogen concentrations to very low values. Estrogen (primarily estradiol, but let's stay with the generic term estrogen for simplicity's sake) is not a metabolic waste product in men, a primordial remnant of no greater perceived value than the appendix. It is a functioning hormone that is anabolic in some tissues (e.g., bone, fat, breast); a stimulatory hormone (i.e., enhances production of certain circulating proteins in the liver); a metabolic modifier (affects endocrine hormones as well as carrier protein concentrations, such as binding globulins for vitamin D and sex hormones); a neurosteroid affecting neurotransmitter action, behavior, and emotions; an endocrine regulator; and has other functions.

It is irrational to think that there would not be hazards when concentrations are artificially suppressed well below the lowest extreme of the physiologic range, just as occurs when estrogen is elevated past the upper limit of normal. What, then, are some of the possible consequences to creating an estrogen deficiency in adult males?"
http://musculardevelopment.com/artic...l#.VFERIvTF_Cr
 
#4
Nice articles, Nelson. Nothing very new, although the rat study about androgen receptors is interesting, albeit we certainly can't necessarily extrapolate to humans. The most accurate statement made in my opinion:

"It is irrational to think that there would not be hazards when concentrations are artificially suppressed well below the lowest extreme of the physiologic range, just as occurs when estrogen is elevated past the upper limit of normal."

THIS is what it all boils down to...BALANCE. The problem is we do not have a concrete reference of what ELEVATED E2 levels are for most males (complicated further by the fact that we are all unique and what is elevated for one, may not be elevated for another). We do know we don't want E2 levels typically much below 20pg/mL, thus we have a lower reference cut-off, but are still lacking an upper level cut-off.

I share the well-intentioned concern for overly aggressive AI use, especially after hearing from one of my patients recently that his PHYSICIAN told him estradiol levels in males should be ZERO! Okay, that's completely insane, especially for a medical professional. I also have some concern with the notion that males should not have a healthy concern for E2 levels >45-50pg/mL longterm. We simply don't have any data on the possible affect of sustained/longterm levels in these ranges on the male body. We don't know! When it comes to E2, I'm a proponent of balance and moderation. With typical goal levels for *most* males in the 20-45pg/ml range (on sensitive assay). When E2 symptoms present, I find they most often vanish when E2 levels are maintained 20-35pg/ml.

Yes, T:E ratio plays SOME role here, but from my experience it is mostly limited to playing a role in the patient's ability to tolerate higher E2 levels without overt E2 symptoms, but still doesn't offer any insight into whatever else may be going on behind the scenes from higher E2 levels, including possible longterm consequences that we have no data on currently.

I may have a unique perspective here, not shared by others, as I treat both male and female patients for HRT/TRT. I see most young, healthy, fertile females (20yo, 25yo, 30yo) presenting with natural E2 levels typically in the range of 50-100pg/mL. Now they will fluctuate throughout different phases of the menstrual cycle, but very often fall in this range. Further, for menopausal females that I have on TREATMENT to elevate their E2 (due to low levels from menopause) we often aim for levels in that range. Thus, estradiol levels >50pg/mL are often the NORMAL levels for young, healthy, fertile females. I have a tough time convincing myself that any levels in a similar range would be normal or healthy for males for any EXTENDED duration of time (although I have seen folks on the forums touting the T:E ratio theory as a justification for just that, even purporting and claiming to guys that E levels in the 40-50 pg/mL range may still be LOW for a male when using the T:E ratio theory). I would opine that E2 levels >35pg/mL are NEVER low for a male, regardless of the concurrent T levels.

We should start a "Stop The Estradiol Madness" forum, lol!
 
#5
Nice articles, Nelson. Nothing very new, although the rat study about androgen receptors is interesting, albeit we certainly can't necessarily extrapolate to humans. The most accurate statement made in my opinion:

"It is irrational to think that there would not be hazards when concentrations are artificially suppressed well below the lowest extreme of the physiologic range, just as occurs when estrogen is elevated past the upper limit of normal."

THIS is what it all boils down to...BALANCE. The problem is we do not have a concrete reference of what ELEVATED E2 levels are for most males (complicated further by the fact that we are all unique and what is elevated for one, may not be elevated for another). We do know we don't want E2 levels typically much below 20pg/mL, thus we have a lower reference cut-off, but are still lacking an upper level cut-off.

I share the well-intentioned concern for overly aggressive AI use, especially after hearing from one of my patients recently that his PHYSICIAN told him estradiol levels in males should be ZERO! Okay, that's completely insane, especially for a medical professional. I also have some concern with the notion that males should not have a healthy concern for E2 levels >45-50pg/mL longterm. We simply don't have any data on the possible affect of sustained/longterm levels in these ranges on the male body. We don't know! When it comes to E2, I'm a proponent of balance and moderation. With typical goal levels for *most* males in the 20-45pg/ml range (on sensitive assay). When E2 symptoms present, I find they most often vanish when E2 levels are maintained 20-35pg/ml.

Yes, T:E ratio plays SOME role here, but from my experience it is mostly limited to playing a role in the patient's ability to tolerate higher E2 levels without overt E2 symptoms, but still doesn't offer any insight into whatever else may be going on behind the scenes from higher E2 levels, including possible longterm consequences that we have no data on currently.

I may have a unique perspective here, not shared by others, as I treat both male and female patients for HRT/TRT. I see most young, healthy, fertile females (20yo, 25yo, 30yo) presenting with natural E2 levels typically in the range of 50-100pg/mL. Now they will fluctuate throughout different phases of the menstrual cycle, but very often fall in this range. Further, for menopausal females that I have on TREATMENT to elevate their E2 (due to low levels from menopause) we often aim for levels in that range. Thus, estradiol levels >50pg/mL are often the NORMAL levels for young, healthy, fertile females. I have a tough time convincing myself that any levels in a similar range would be normal or healthy for males for any EXTENDED duration of time (although I have seen folks on the forums touting the T:E ratio theory as a justification for just that, even purporting and claiming to guys that E levels in the 40-50 pg/mL range may still be LOW for a male when using the T:E ratio theory). I would opine that E2 levels >35pg/mL are NEVER low for a male, regardless of the concurrent T levels.

We should start a "Stop The Estradiol Madness" forum, lol!
Thank you for a sane, balanced reflection on estradiol management.
 
#8
I think higher doses of TRT and anabolic steroids can decrease the upstream hormones like progesterone.

Anabolic steroids and TRT decrease SHBG, DHEA, pregnenolone and progesterone in men.

View attachment 1755

My buddy Lee Meyers wrote a good summary on progesterone in men:
Progesterone in Men
Good point. And that is one of the benefits of regular HCG use for men on TRT.

Having said that, it is not good for men to supplement PROG. Doing so is both highly feminizing, and inflammatory.
 
#10
It's always interesting that despite the brouhaha over E2 and maintaining a minimum level of E2, no one ever suggests an estrogen cream type product if you are low on E2.

Though I guess an acceptable way to raise your E2 is to further raise your TT. That always works.
 
#11
It's always interesting that despite the brouhaha over E2 and maintaining a minimum level of E2, no one ever suggests an estrogen cream type product if you are low on E2.

Though I guess an acceptable way to raise your E2 is to further raise your TT. That always works.
I had a thought.

Maybe the main benefit of testosterone for me is that it brings my E2 up from below <5 to at least 20.3 pg/ml. When my TT was 690 ng/dl my E2 was 20.3. Anything lower on TT than 690 drops my E2 down.
 
#12
an easy way that should work to some extent is cheap oral DHEA or higher dose HCG like >500iu if you need some E though being low seems to be uncommon. But just as I can use a cream on the scrotum for DHT treatment I don't see why if you really needed a little E cream could be a good thing.
 
#13
i never had problems with estrogen coming from testosterone but dhea, hcg creates E that I don't like at all makes me feel crappy.. how so? xD I don't understand since e2 is e2 but I can take 200mg shot every week and be ok (assuming I didn't jump straight to 200mg but worked it up slowly) but dhea and hcg forget about it makes me feel like crap..
 
#14
i never had problems with estrogen coming from testosterone but dhea, hcg creates E that I don't like at all makes me feel crappy.. how so? xD I don't understand since e2 is e2 but I can take 200mg shot every week and be ok (assuming I didn't jump straight to 200mg but worked it up slowly) but dhea and hcg forget about it makes me feel like crap..
I could see it, DHEA is a precursor to at least 4 other hormones, not just E2, and HCG mimics LH and only creates E2 after testosterone has been increased in the testicals, and LH has receptors in other places. You have heard it before, backfill the pathways.

So they all do more than just create more E2.
 
#15
an easy way that should work to some extent is cheap oral DHEA or higher dose HCG like >500iu if you need some E though being low seems to be uncommon. But just as I can use a cream on the scrotum for DHT treatment I don't see why if you really needed a little E cream could be a good thing.
DHEA is cheap, HCG not so much, and it's an indirect way to maybe create more E2.

While increasing your T dose is a pretty sure way to also increase E2. I just wonder if we didn't have such a strong bias against supplementing E2, would it work better?

I do recall reading those with low on the range T with very low E2 feel better when their E2 is raised. But it was a research type project.
 
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