The average man produces 7mg of testosterone per day, so why take so much TRT?

[Duece12345]

Heard fellow TRT guy say the average male produces 7mg of testosterone a day. Why do most of us take between 100-200mg a week and not have through the roof T levels?

 

[Systemlord]

Why do most of us take between 100-200mg a day and not have through the roof T levels?

I think you are talking about T cream which has a very short half-life which is why you have to dose 1-2x daily and is cleared from the body quickly. The cypionate injections has a half-life of 7-8 days which continue building for 40 days and a good portion isn't yet available to your tissues.

You're basically have some T locked away for use later.

Half lives of testosterone, hCG, anastrozole and clomiphene.

ALRIGHT MY FRIENDS HERE'S SOME KNOWLEDGE THAT WILL CHANGE LIVES ON TRT FOREVER -Originally wrote this as a reply to someone on a different thread, but decided to put it in it's own thread as well.- This is how half lives work. For example, let's say you take 1mg of Arimidex EOD. The half-life...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Cataceous]

It's not the whole story, but part of it is that natural men typically have peak testosterone measured, but guys on TRT are more often measuring trough values. In fact most guys on TRT do have much higher levels than natural men. Another small part of it is that you're referring to doses that include ester weights. Seven milligrams a day of pure testosterone is equivalent to 70 mg of testosterone cypionate per week.

 

[DS3]

It's not the whole story, but part of it is that natural men typically have peak testosterone measured, but guys on TRT are more often measuring trough values. In fact most guys on TRT do have much higher levels than natural men. Another small part of it is that you're referring to doses that include ester weights. Seven milligrams a day of pure testosterone is equivalent to 70 mg of testosterone cypionate per week.

Is this actually true with today’s gold standard of microdosing? Are there enough men who still shoot 1x per week that we can assume ‘more often than not’ guys are measuring their trough values?

 

[bochinit]

Inject two times per week and that's done.

 

[Duece12345]

Sorry yes I meant 100-200mg a week. Wouldn’t that put the avg guy wayyyy over what the avg guy naturally produces. Why does it only elevate T to the higher end or “normal”.

 

[Cataceous]

Is this actually true with today’s gold standard of microdosing? Are there enough men who still shoot 1x per week that we can assume ‘more often than not’ guys are measuring their trough values?

I would bet that at most a few percent of men on TRT are injecting more often than twice a week. With twice-weekly injections of testosterone cypionate the trough may be roughly a third lower than the peak. Even twice-weekly injecting is surely still a minority protocol, albeit a growing one.

 

[DS3]

Sorry yes I meant 100-200mg a week. Wouldn’t that put the avg guy wayyyy over what the avg guy naturally produces. Why does it only elevate T to the higher end or “normal”.

@Cataceous and others will jump on here and give long-winded rationale about ester weight, etc. At the end of the day, it’s not fully known. We just know, myself, the members here, and most doctors that I’ve consulted with, that 1 mg of endogenous T does not = 1 mg of exogenous T. Yes ester weight plays a role here, but doesn’t fully explain how a guy (like me) can take 210 mg per week in EOD microdosing and stay within physiological range. 60 mg EOD or 30 mg ED would be impossible to achieve naturally. Yet there are guys who naturally at 1000-1200 ng/dL (where I sit on TRT) and are certainly not producing 30 mg endogenous T ED.

 

[Cataceous]

Sorry yes I meant 100-200mg a week. Wouldn’t that put the avg guy wayyyy over what the avg guy naturally produces. Why does it only elevate T to the higher end or “normal”.

Suppose at his prime Joe Average naturally produces 7 mg T per day and has morning total testosterone of 600 ng/dL. Later in life he becomes hypogonadal and starts TRT with weekly injections. He's on one injection of 140 mg T cypionate per week and before his injections measures total testosterone to be 640 ng/dL. Does this mean that he is somehow "unresponsive" to testosterone given that he's injecting an average of 14 mg per day, double his youthful production? No. His natural average testosterone was 480 ng/dL. His TRT average testosterone is double this, 960 ng/dL. With weekly injections he's seeing a 60% drop in serum testosterone from peak to trough. His TRT peak is 1,500 ng/dL.

Furthermore, in most cases TRT lowers SHBG. This compounds the illusion of unresponsiveness to exogenous T, because injected testosterone is proportional to free testosterone, not total. So lowering SHBG at the same T dose leads to lower total testosterone.

 

[Cataceous]

@Cataceous... We just know, myself, the members here, and most doctors that I’ve consulted with, that 1 mg of endogenous T does not = 1 mg of exogenous T. ...

A phenomenon that may not exist caused by unknown factors. Get back to me when you have something tangible.

 

[DS3]

A phenomenon that may not exist caused by unknown factors. Get back to me when you have something tangible.

Oh @Cataceous, your reductionistic rationale based on what you currently 'know' to be true based on available research within TRT (limited) and no doubt using logical inference as a means of proving your point, compounded with your insufferable desire to maintain cognitive consistency, is comical.

Your rationale based on your previous response is that TRT patients are taking a massive 140 mg shot at a single point during the week, skyrocketing their TT to 1500 ng/dL (speculative #, not definitive, but that notwithstanding). Average TT while on large once-weekly doses of test are largely irrelevant as a patient is unlikely to experience positive symptoms at his peak or trough, and the average of those numerical values not being representative with how he feels on TRT.

Second, your logical inference is stemming from the notion that patients are using large once weekly dosages and experiencing substantial peaks and troughs. It's well noted on this forum and among TRT practitioners that micro-dosing is more optimal, and more patients are adhering to such protocols to avoid ups and downs.

Third, lowered SHBG due to testosterone administration ending in lower TT is not a proven event. This is speculation on your part; proof for which you can provide no study (as we've previously discussed).

"A phenomenon that may not exist caused by unknown factors. Get back to me when you have something tangible."

Don't strawman an answer, @Cataceous. 60 mg EOD, or 30 mg ED in myself produces a peak TT of 1150 ng/dL confirmed in 3 separate assays while being on Test Cyp. Top of the physiological range is 1200 ng/dL. So you are telling me that individuals who naturally possess these levels (yes, 1% or so of the population) produce 20+ mg of natural testosterone per week to achieve these levels of TT?

 

[Cataceous]

Oh @Cataceous...
Your rationale based on your previous response is that TRT patients are taking a massive 140 mg shot at a single point during the week, skyrocketing their TT to 1500 ng/dL (speculative #, not definitive, but that notwithstanding). ...testosterone per week to achieve these levels of TT?

Speculative as to the exact number, but supported in general by available pharmacokinetics research.

... Average TT while on large once-weekly doses of test are largely irrelevant as a patient is unlikely to experience positive symptoms at his peak or trough, and the average of those numerical values not being representative with how he feels on TRT.
...

Average levels, corresponding to areas under the curves, are important for quantification, and thus far from irrelevant. It's also quite plausible that some effects of testosterone are a result of averages rather than peaks or troughs, making your dismissal all the more puzzling.

Second, your logical inference is stemming from the notion that patients are using large once weekly dosages and experiencing substantial peaks and troughs. It's well noted on this forum and among TRT practitioners that micro-dosing is more optimal, and more patients are adhering to such protocols to avoid ups and downs.
...

I'm not turning up surveys with the needed specificity, but I'm still confident that among injection protocols, a frequency of less than twice per week is the majority, and probably by a pretty wide margin. Understand that the forums are not populated by typical TRT users.

Third, lowered SHBG due to testosterone administration ending in lower TT is not a proven event. This is speculation on your part; proof for which you can provide no study (as we've previously discussed).
...

As I recall I turned up a number of references stating that androgens are suppressive of SHBG. Anecdotally, by a wide margin men in the forums report reductions in SHBG after starting TRT.

Don't strawman an answer, @Cataceous. 60 mg EOD, or 30 mg ED in myself produces a peak TT of 1150 ng/dL confirmed in 3 separate assays while being on Test Cyp. Top of the physiological range is 1200 ng/dL. So you are telling me that individuals who naturally possess these levels (yes, 1% or so of the population) produce 20+ mg of natural testosterone per week to achieve these levels of TT?

So we're back to your admittedly unusual results as the main piece of evidence? Though interesting, they're hardly much support for the bold proposition that "1 mg of endogenous T does not = 1 mg of exogenous T".

 

[DS3]

Speculative as to the exact number, but supported in general by available pharmacokinetics research.


Average levels, corresponding to areas under the curves, are important for quantification, and thus far from irrelevant. It's also quite plausible that some effects of testosterone are a result of averages rather than peaks or troughs, making your dismissal all the more puzzling.

Important for quantification? Absolutely. Important for determining the overall positive and negative symptoms a patient may experience (within physiological range)? No, not nearly as important. It is well-known that the rollercoaster created both in regard to hormone levels and emotion/cognition leads to suboptimal TRT experiences, regardless of the average deems that the male should feel well. The bewilderment that my statement has created is surprising to me, given your previous acknowledgment of this roller-coaster effect and the negative symptoms it can produce (not just in terms of estrogen, but in terms of emotion and cognition).

I'm not turning up surveys with the needed specificity, but I'm still confident that among injection protocols, a frequency of less than twice per week is the majority, and probably by a pretty wide margin. Understand that the forums are not populated by typical TRT users.

Fair point that the sample here is a skewed sample. No true evidence on either side here to continue debating this point.

As I recall I turned up a number of references stating that androgens are suppressive of SHBG. Anecdotally, by a wide margin men in the forums report reductions in SHBG after starting TRT.

You did. However, as I recall, the references you provided were reports of theoretical mathematical computations rather than actual research demonstrating the correlation.

So we're back to your admittedly unusual results as the main piece of evidence? Though interesting, they're hardly much support for the bold proposition that "1 mg of endogenous T does not = 1 mg of exogenous T".

"Average levels, corresponding to areas under the curves..."

Important for quantification? Absolutely. Important for determining the overall positive and negative symptoms a patient may experience (within physiological range)? No, not nearly as important. It is well-known that the rollercoaster created both in regard to hormone levels and emotion/cognition leads to suboptimal TRT experiences, regardless if the average deems that the male should feel well. The bewilderment that my statement has created is surprising to me, given your previous acknowledgment of this roller-coaster effect and the negative symptoms it can produce (not just in terms of estrogen, but in terms of emotion and cognition).

"I'm not turning up surveys with the needed specificity..."

Fair point that the sample here is a skewed sample. No true evidence on either side here to continue debating this point.

"As I recall I turned up a number of references..."

You did. However, as I recall, the references you provided were reports of theoretical mathematical computations rather than actual research demonstrating the correlation.

"So we're back to your admittedly unusual results..."

And yet, there is little to no evidence to support the notion that 1 mg of endogenous T does = 1 mg of exogenous T. So now we are back at an argument of logical inference stemming from no true research on the topic. On my side, my consistent blood assays tell me this cannot be the case, yet as eloquently as you put it, single anecdotes could very well be abnormal phenomenons that are not generalizable. On your side, you logically infer that as exogenous testosterone is bioidentical, 1 mg must = 1 mg. However, there is no discernable evidence that this is the case.

 

[Cataceous]

"Average levels, corresponding to areas under the curves..."

Important for quantification? Absolutely. Important for determining the overall positive and negative symptoms a patient may experience (within physiological range)? No, not nearly as important. ...
...

Pure speculation on your part.

...
It is well-known that the rollercoaster created both in regard to hormone levels and emotion/cognition leads to suboptimal TRT experiences, regardless if the average deems that the male should feel well.
...

Recall that young males see substantial daily variation in total testosterone, up to +/-25% about the mean. That's a rollercoaster too. My counter-speculation: It's likely that frequency, peaks, troughs, and average values all have some level of significance.

"As I recall I turned up a number of references..."

You did. However, as I recall, the references you provided were reports of theoretical mathematical computations rather than actual research demonstrating the correlation.

Not a large study, but very clear results:

Sex hormone-binding globulin changes with androgen replacement - PubMed

Since sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) levels are often elevated in sera of patients with testicular insufficiency, it is important to determine whether SHBG declines into the normal range and the extent of change in free testosterone (free T) after androgen administration. Five normal men...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"So we're back to your admittedly unusual results..."

And yet, there is little to no evidence to support the notion that 1 mg of endogenous T does = 1 mg of exogenous T. So now we are back at an argument of logical inference stemming from no true research on the topic. On my side, my consistent blood assays tell me this cannot be the case, yet as eloquently as you put it, single anecdotes could very well be abnormal phenomenons that are not generalizable. On your side, you logically infer that as exogenous testosterone is bioidentical, 1 mg must = 1 mg. However, there is no discernable evidence that this is the case.

For your results to have any significance we would need detailed measurements with and without TRT, and with a sampling interval small enough for accurate AUC calculations.

If you're claiming that your body treats a free testosterone molecule differently depending on its source then that's pretty extraordinary and requires extraordinary proof. If you're simply implying that you somehow have low bioavailability of T from cypionate, well it is contradicted by some research, but at least it's not ridiculous.

 

[DS3]

Pure speculation on your part.


Recall that young males see substantial daily variation in total testosterone, up to +/-25% about the mean. That's a rollercoaster too. My counter-speculation: It's likely that frequency, peaks, troughs, and average values all have some level of significance.


Not a large study, but very clear results:

Sex hormone-binding globulin changes with androgen replacement - PubMed

Since sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) levels are often elevated in sera of patients with testicular insufficiency, it is important to determine whether SHBG declines into the normal range and the extent of change in free testosterone (free T) after androgen administration. Five normal men...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

For your results to have any significance we would need detailed measurements with and without TRT, and with a sampling interval small enough for accurate AUC calculations.

If you're claiming that your body treats a free testosterone molecule differently depending on its source then that's pretty extraordinary and requires extraordinary proof. If you're simply implying that you somehow have low bioavailability of T from cypionate, well it is contradicted by some research, but at least it's not ridiculous.

"Pure speculation on your part."

Taking a page from your book and utilizing a hypothetical circumstance to demonstrate the assertion. So C. Stone takes 140 mg of testosterone once per week, experiences a peak TT of ~1500 ng/dL by day 2, and by day 7 right before his shot his is sitting at ~500 ng/dL. The following is common for men to report: By day 2 as C. Stone's TT is spiking, he experiences a little high blood pressure, anxiety, irritability, and brain fog. By day 4-5 these symptoms subside, and C. Stone feels pretty good- good libido, good energy, mental clarity. By day 6, C. Stone's energy begins to fall as he awaits his next shot. During this time (day 6-7) he feels what he expresses is the beginning of 'low T symptoms'.

These are all very common experiences that we hear from guys who take larger once weekly shots. So his AVERAGE testosterone is not truly an indication of how he feels while during his weekly rollercoaster. C. Stone doesn't feel on day 2 the same as he does on days 4-5, nor does he feel the same as he does on day 6-7. The average TT would suggest that he should feel good, but the reality of it is that men were not designed to experience such dramatic changes in hormones, and the average is misleading.

Interesting that you would argue this given the strong stance you have taken in recent months concerning maintaining a steady state in TRT.

"Recall that young males see substantial daily variation in total testosterone, up to +/-25% about the mean. That's a rollercoaster too. My counter-speculation: It's likely that frequency, peaks, troughs, and average values all have some level of significance."

While this is factually correct, what you are conveniently leaving out is that these fluctuations are the results of internal checks and balances. Exogenous T hardly mimics these natural fluctuations, a point that you so vehemently argued for 2 months ago as we discussed the fluctuation of EOD Test Prop shots and its implications in both objective and subjective TRT outcomes.

"For your results to have any significance we would need detailed measurements with and without TRT, and with a sampling interval small enough for accurate AUC calculations."

In order to provide significance for generalizability, you are correct. In order to provide significance in terms of a single piece of anecdotal evidence that PERHAPS 1 mg exo doesn't = 1 mg endo, no, that is not necessary. 1150 ng/dL is my peak TT on EOD shots of Test Cyp at 60 mg EOD. The rigid scientific approach you suggest is not necessary to spur the need for further inquisition into whether or not 1 mg exo truly = 1 mg endo.

"If you're claiming that your body treats a free testosterone molecule differently depending on its source then that's pretty extraordinary and requires extraordinary proof. If you're simply implying that you somehow have low bioavailability of T from cypionate, well it is contradicted by some research, but at least it's not ridiculous."

You accept that logical inference because it makes sense to you, not because studies suggest it to be true. I am implying the former as a possibility, not the latter.