Testosterone LOWER after 6 Weeks of treatment

[RickB]

Are you done yet?

Better yet search all the posts/threads on here.

Never said there was anything wrong with someone testing at peak as long as they are always testing true trough.

Yes, it has been hammered home to test at the true trough with the critical point being made that you always need to keep in mind where your trough FT level truly sits whether injecting once weekly, twice weekly (every 3.5 days), M/W/F, EOD let alone daily.

Too many are gung ho about jacking up their FT level without taking into consideration peak--->trough on such protocols.

Going to be a big difference in someone running a trough FT 30+ ng/dL injecting once or twice weekly compared to EOD or daily.

The whole point of testing at the true trough is to make sure levels are not too low which can have a negative effect on overall symptom relief let alone too high which can have one struggling with sides till f**king cows come home!

Much easier getting one blood test done to see where your trough level truly sits as blood work is done just before your next injection.


TrueTrough (TC/TE)

*Once weekly (7 days post-injection)

*Twice weekly (3.5 days/84 hrs post-injection)

*M/W/F (Monday morning)

*EOD (2 days/48 hrs post-injection)

*Daily (24 hrs post-injection)


The issue with testing at the true peak is it's a guessing game as you would need to test every hour post-injection to see where your level truly sits.

Is your peak 8-12 hrs, 24 hrs?

Throw in IM vs sub-q and this could easily change things.

Sure you can get a rough idea but even then testing at the true trough is standard practice.

No one said there was anything wrong with testing at peak and trough but testing at true trough (lowest point) before your next injection is a F**KING must!

You can rest assured that if trough levels are too high then it is a given that peak levels will be very high/absurdly high depending on the protocol (injection frequency).

Trough makes most sense most of the time, which is what I stated. However you and especially System Lord always say "you need to test at trough", as if it's the only answer. And it's not.

You're correct there's no way to know absolute peak. But it can be found if tested enough. And even if the exact hour can't be determined, there are still plenty of reasons to want to test earlier than trough like to try to see just how high your numbers are getting and how fast they may be dropping. If your trough is low but your peaks are exceedingly high that would be a lot different than them both being low.

There's a lot I don't know obviously, but it doesn't take an expert to realize that the "always test at trough" mantra is flawed thinking.

 

[RickB]

I suggested to test at 6 hours or next day morning because the OP trough looks suspiciously low for his weekly equivalent dose of 140mg (160mg for 8 days) and his trough is suspiciously close to his pre TRT level.

It could be that he is injecting fake or diluted testosterone. This is how I've red his implicit concern. The testing at non-trough would give him some clarity about that.

Right. If his peak is low it could be bunk. If it's high, his body is using it up. I don't see how you took my comment as contrary to yours, as I didn't mention your motive AND if his 6 hour level is high, it shows a clear biological reason to test much sooner than trough in general.

 

[sammmy]

This thread is not about searching for the peak, it is about verifying that the injected testosterone is real. I myself suggested to test from 6 hours after injection to one day after injection because the peak is expected around 6 hours, however the exact peak location is variable and unknown.

I clarified that because I knew that will derail the discussion, as it did.

 

[RickB]

This thread is not about searching for the peak, it is about verifying that the injected testosterone is real. I myself suggested to test from 6 hours after injection to one day after injection because the peak is expected around 6 hours, however the exact peak location is variable and unknown.

I clarified that because I knew that will derail the discussion, as it did.

Right, and just like I said, if it proves the testosterone IS real, then it just so happens to show a clear reason for peak testing.

I don't think me mentioning that is derailment of a thread. I had no part in the fighting or whatever got scrubbed from this thread. I made a relevant point because if the peak number is high, then his body is using up the t very quickly. That is the inverse of the t not being real. You want to act like testing the authenticity only matters if the numbers come back showing that the t is not real (or is diluted). But obviously, it may come back to show that it IS real. What then?

And if you really think it's derailing the thread, then why would you keep replying to me?

 

[sammmy]

Should I not reply when you are quoting and addressing me? I'll keep that in mind in the future.

 

[RickB]

Should I not reply when you are quoting and addressing me? I'll keep that in mind in the future.

I guess you missed the part where I said "if you think it's derailing the thread". But yeah, I guess it's better if you just keep it in mind in general. You can start right now if you want.

 

[sammmy]

For what it is worth, I do think you derailed the tread into a page-wasting argument with madman, so that is why I attempted to clarify a few times, but it doesn't register.

Maybe you two should make your own thread about the peak and generate 1000 pages of back and forth arguments?

Good luck finding the peak, and do let madman know when you find it LOL

 

[RickB]

For what it is worth, I do think you derailed the tread into a page-wasting argument with madman, so that is why I attempted to clarify a few times, but it doesn't register.

Maybe you two should make your own thread about the peak and generate 1000 pages of back and forth arguments?

Good luck finding the peak, and do let madman know when you find it LOL

(yawn)

 

[madman]

Trough makes most sense most of the time, which is what I stated. However you and especially System Lord always say "you need to test at trough", as if it's the only answer. And it's not.

You're correct there's no way to know absolute peak. But it can be found if tested enough. And even if the exact hour can't be determined, there are still plenty of reasons to want to test earlier than trough like to try to see just how high your numbers are getting and how fast they may be dropping. If your trough is low but your peaks are exceedingly high that would be a lot different than them both being low.

There's a lot I don't know obviously, but it doesn't take an expert to realize that the "always test at trough" mantra is flawed thinking.

Again for the last f**king time!

Never said there was anything wrong with someone testing at peak as long as they are always testing true trough.

No one said there was anything wrong with testing at peak and trough but testing at true trough (lowest point) before your next injection is a F**KING must!

 

[RickB]

Again for the last f**king time!

Never said there was anything wrong with someone testing at peak as long as they are always testing true trough.

No one said there was anything wrong with testing at peak and trough but testing at true trough (lowest point) before your next injection is a F**KING must!

I'm glad we agree then. My issue was that I've seen a lot of posts where the reply is "you need to test at trough", as if there is never a reason to test otherwise. Though correct and usually appropriate for the usual low T symptom posts we see so often, it can also come across as a blanket statement and can leave someone thinking there's never a reason to test at other times. Sometimes "test at trough first and go from there" would be much more helpful.

In this thread Systemlord said in post#4 Always do labs right before your next injection. Then in #7 he says there's little reason to test at peak because it's not possible for your total T to stay static. Of course we know the numbers don't stay static, but there are guys who feel best right before their next injection but feel like shit on day three. Should they not test on day three because total T doesn't "stay static"?

For all we know the OP in this thread could be injecting half a syringe of air, or unlikely as it is, there could be something wrong with his medicine. Even if there are no peculiar factors like these, wouldn't it be worth it to get an idea how fast his body is eliminating the T? He could change his injection frequency based on the results. I don't know his situation, but I pay $40. I would have no issue testing at trough and then closer to peak and do all seven days if necessary.

 

[tareload]

Maybe you two should make your own thread about the peak and generate 1000 pages of back and forth arguments?

I'm in!

 

[tareload]

Again for the last f**king time!

Never said there was anything wrong with someone testing at peak as long as they are always testing true trough.

No one said there was anything wrong with testing at peak and trough but testing at true trough (lowest point) before your next injection is a F**KING must!

Are you really sure you require 150 mg/week (MED)? I am getting the sneaking suspicion perhaps a modest dose reduction may be in order....

Don't get me wrong, I love most of your work and have been vocal about it. Just curious if 100 to 125 mg/week may yield some modest NET benefits.

I know I always struggle with dose inflation as well. If we were to plot reward/risk benefit function vs dose for madman is the local max really 150 mg/week?

What's your BP/RHR?

 

[acedia]

It looks like they are using Vermeulen calculated free testosterone, which is good. In spite of appearances, your testosterone has improved some, though it is lower than expected for the dose. Are you sure you were taking 80 mg every four days? What is the concentration of that testosterone (mg/mL) and what volume were you taking? Beyond the dose, other explanations for low results at trough include an above-average metabolic clearance rate of testosterone or unusually fast absorption.

Here's how to tell that your testosterone actually improved: First, SHBG did decline some, which had a depressing effect on total testosterone. The decline in SHBG itself is an indicator of higher androgen levels. If SHBG had not declined then your current trough total testosterone would be 438 ng/dL, not far from the baseline values. Second, the baseline values are presumably morning values, targeting natural peaks. Is this correct? If so then after accounting for diurnal variation your average testosterone level could have been 10-20% lower, say 360-410 ng/dL. Third, on TRT you are measuring troughs. If the peak levels are 60% higher than these troughs then the peak and average levels are roughly 620 ng/dL and 510 respectively. The bottom line is that TRT has probably raised your average free testosterone by 25% or so.

To rule out fast absorption you could try every-other-day injections for a month or two. I have seen data from a couple guys who have documented relatively large drops in testosterone even within two days. If you are in this category then you don't want to be pushing troughs higher only to end up with more extreme peaks. More frequent injections can help you avoid this situation.

Very informative reply, ty.

According to the label on my syringes yes, it was 80MG, it was 0.5ML of liquid, with "compound overflow" I dont know what that means, I injected the entire syringe every time without missing a single dose. I watched numerous youtube videos before starting and had a nurse present when I did my first self inject.

On to your other points, you are spot on. My first two tests were early morning, and the third one (on trt) was during a trough. As people here call it.

The clinic im using called me today, and I spoke to a nurse, she said they would up the dose to 90mg every 4 days, and when I asked her why my total T went down, she straight up said "I dont know"

I received my next set of needles in the mail today, its from a different pharmacy and it has no overfill, its only 80mg each so i'd have to go in the clinic and have them fill them up more for me. Im just going to put them in the closet.

I have a vial of 10ml 200/mg ml Test from an Online Clinic (legit prescription) I signed up for that im going to use from now on. I injected 100mg 2/12. I will start every 4 days, and in 6 weeks ill get a new blood test.

(I signed up for this online clinic because ive been planning a move accross country and this local clinic isnt in the new state. I was using them for easy blood test and face to face care until i moved)

Ill give another update when I get those results

 

[Devcon]

Started with Test around 460

After 6 weeks of injecting 80mg every 4 days i got a blood test, and now my total testosterone is at 389.

How did my T go down almost 20% while injecting?? Ive called the clinic and havnt gotten a response from doctor yet

Let me guess you’re injecting subq.

 

[acedia]

Let me guess you’re injecting subq.

into muscle in thigh, and while I am new to it all. Theres been a few times when I stabbed the needle in, and i can feel it being pulled in a certain direction by my thigh muscle sort of. So im pretty sure im getting to muscle and im not obese or anything.

 

[Devcon]

into muscle in thigh, and while I am new to it all. Theres been a few times when I stabbed the needle in, and i can feel it being pulled in a certain direction by my thigh muscle sort of. So im pretty sure im getting to muscle and im not obese or anything.

Is your sex hormone binding globulin really high?

 

[Systemlord]

There are a lot of nerves to hit in the thigh muscle. The deltoids has a smaller of a chance to hitting nerves.

 

[Devcon]

There are a lot of nerves to hit in the thigh muscle. The deltoids has a smaller of a chance to hitting nerves.

Is your sex hormone binding globulin really high?

If SHBG is within a good range then I would get a full thyroid panel done.

 

[Devcon]

into muscle in thigh, and while I am new to it all. Theres been a few times when I stabbed the needle in, and i can feel it being pulled in a certain direction by my thigh muscle sort of. So im pretty sure im getting to muscle and im not obese or anything.

 

[Devcon]

Ventro glute is a really good spot too