Results after 6 weeks

[goga]

I began TRT journey more than 6 weeks ago.
Readings before TRT were:

T - 11.71 nmol/l (range 8.64-29.0)

Free T - 12.96 pg/ml (15-50)

Estradiol - 26.77 pg/ml (11-43)

LH high, prolactin normal.

I inject 125 mg T IM per week.



Results right before next injection were:

T 4.26 ng/ml (3-8), I think its about 15 nmol/l


Free T 19 pg/ml

SHBG 28.8 nml/l (17-77).


E 25

My Lymphocytes are decreased and Eosenophils increased. Hematocrit is fine.


I am starting HCG protocol now 500 UI, twice a week.

In terms of symptoms I think my mental focus is somewhat better now, but libido has not improved much.

Please comment, if you find the results to be appropriate after 6-7 weeks. Do I need to adjust? Is it ok to have have changes in Lymphocytes and/or Eosenophils while on TRT?

 

[CoastWatcher]

You're injecting 125mg in a single,weekly dose, or in smaller, multiple doses? Living outside the States you can't measure estradiol with the sensitive test, but it *might* be a factor in suppressing your libido if it has climbed. That said, libido doesn't respond as quickly to TRT as other do things such as mood, focus/concentration, and so on.

 

[madman]

I began TRT journey more than 6 weeks ago.
Readings before TRT were:

T - 11.71 nmol/l (range 8.64-29.0)

Free T - 12.96 pg/ml (15-50)

Estradiol - 26.77 pg/ml (11-43)

LH high, prolactin normal.

I inject 125 mg T IM per week.



Results right before next injection were:

T 4.26 ng/ml (3-8), I think its about 15 nmol/l


Free T 19 pg/ml

SHBG 28.8 nml/l (17-77).


E 25

My Lymphocytes are decreased and Eosenophils increased. Hematocrit is fine.


I am starting HCG protocol now 500 UI, twice a week.

In terms of symptoms I think my mental focus is somewhat better now, but libido has not improved much.

Please comment, if you find the results to be appropriate after 6-7 weeks. Do I need to adjust? Is it ok to have have changes in Lymphocytes and/or Eosenophils while on TRT?

Your trough levels for your total/free are still low on 125mg once weekly. 15 nmol/L is roughly 430 ng/dl. It has only been 6 weeks when I first started trt and at 8 weeks in on 100 mg once weekly my trough for total was similar to yours. I felt some what ok for the first 3 days than felt as I was crashing and libido was hit or miss. Most on the forum stated that splitting dose and injecting every 3.5 days one could usually attain higher levels and less peaks/valleys. You would be far better of switching to 60mg 2x week and most likely you will see improvement in test levels/overall well being after 6-8 weeks on new protocol as after 2 months in I needed a dose increase and also split my weekly injection of 150mg/week into 75mg every 3.5 days and after 8 weeks was 41.5 nmol/L (roughly 1200 ng/dl) and doubled the top range of my free t mind you it was a big jump from 100-150mg/week where as I could have still brought test levels up to a healthy range on 120-140mg/week split 2x per week. It was a night and day difference as I now have tons of energy/strong libido/elevated mood/increased strength/muscle/recovery from training and feel awesome! Sure there are some days here and there I may feel tired/down due to lack of sleep or external stressors (family/work) as being on trt and having optimal levels does not mean that a person will be 100% in all aspects 24/7 but definitely 90% of the time. Also give it time as patience is key and the longer you are on the better you will feel especially regarding libido/erections barring your other hormones are in balance especially the one all people on trt LOVE TO HATE the so misunderstood ESTRADIOL. Everyone on this forum has been of great help especially COASTWATCHER.

 

[goga]

It's single weekly dose. The medicine is called Omnadren and is quite similar to Sustanon 250. I inject half an ampule.

There is no sensitive Estradiol testing here, so I took what was available.

 

[madman]

It's single weekly dose. The medicine is called Omnadren and is quite similar to Sustanon 250. I inject half an ampule.

There is no sensitive Estradiol testing here, so I took what was available.

Can you get cypionate or enanthate prescribed as due to the single ester it will be better overall due to the pharmacokinetics than the multiple esters Omnadren or Sustanon?

 

[goga]

Can you get cypionate or enanthate prescribed as due to the single ester it will be better overall due to the pharmacokinetics than the multiple esters Omnadren or Sustanon?

I appreciate your feedback on the preference of single ester T over multi-ester ones. It will be much more expensive to buy enanthate, but I will buy it.
With regards to Estradiol, I can just assume. My water retention and moderate weight gain may/may not be due to E2.

I wonder, what they do in Europe with E2 testing on TRT.

 

[madman]

I appreciate your feedback on the preference of single ester T over multi-ester ones. It will be much more expensive to buy enanthate, but I will buy it.
With regards to Estradiol, all I just can make assumptions. My water retention and moderate weight gain may/may not be due to E2.

I wonder, what they do in Europe with E2 testing on TRT.

Invest the extra in the enanthate and switch your protocol to 60 mg every 3.5 days say Tuesday morning at 6am/Friday night at 6pm as an example use a day/time which suites you best to adhere to the regiment as it is of extreme importance to stability in ones test levels/overall well being. Than have blood work done 6-8 weeks later and most likely you will post higher total/free t levels and maybe improved estradiol.

 

[goga]

Invest the extra in the enanthate and switch your protocol to 60 mg every 3.5 days say Tuesday morning at 6am/Friday night at 6pm as an example use a day/time which suites you best to adhere to the regiment as it is of extreme importance to stability in ones test levels/overall well being. Than have blood work done 6-8 weeks later and most likely you will post higher total/free t levels and maybe improved estradiol.

I read somewhere that 100 mg enanthate provides less that 100 mg of T. Do you know the ratio?

As for the timing of injections, I would assume that exact time may not be that important (day is, but hour may not be) as processes in the body are not linear. I mean, does not have to be exactly 3 days and 12 hours.
Just my opinion.

 

[madman]

I read somewhere that 100 mg enanthate provides less that 100 mg of T. Do you know the ratio?

As for the timing of injections, I would assume that exact time may not be that important (day is, but hour may not be) as processes in the body are not linear. I mean, does not have to be exactly 3 days and 12 hours.
Just my opinion.

Injections every 3.5 days does not have to be to the exact hour but try to keep within the 2x weekly injection being split up fairly equally regarding overall hours.

 

[madman]

Do not over concern yourself with the amount of useable testosterone derived from different esters as 100mg/week of enanthate or cypionate will usually put most in a healthy physiological range whether mid/normal for some or high normal foe others especially when dividing the injection into 50mg every 3.5 days. Some may need 120-150mg/week but it is not as common unless trying to achieve the upper end of the top of the physiological range. Anything over 150-200mg/week is usually overkill for most unless one has LOW shbg so they burn through the testosterone more quickly as there is not much shbg for it to bind to.

 

[goga]

Do not over concern yourself with the amount of useable testosterone derived from different esters as 100mg/week of enanthate or cypionate will usually put most in a healthy physiological range whether mid/normal for some or high normal foe others especially when dividing the injection into 50mg every 3.5 days. Some may need 120-150mg/week but it is not as common unless trying to achieve the upper end of the top of the physiological range. Anything over 150-200mg/week is usually overkill for most unless one has LOW shbg so they burn through the testosterone more quickly as there is not much shbg for it to bind to.

Important info. I appreciate.
I want to achieve normal level. At least for now. I am not doing intensive workouts. I need to balance it. It seems, TRT is causing decreased Lymphocytes and increased Eosenophils. It may be dangerous.

 

[goga]

Do not over concern yourself with the amount of useable testosterone derived from different esters as 100mg/week of enanthate or cypionate will usually put most in a healthy physiological range whether mid/normal for some or high normal foe others especially when dividing the injection into 50mg every 3.5 days. Some may need 120-150mg/week but it is not as common unless trying to achieve the upper end of the top of the physiological range. Anything over 150-200mg/week is usually overkill for most unless one has LOW shbg so they burn through the testosterone more quickly as there is not much shbg for it to bind to.

10 days ago, began twice a week (125 mg T weekly total) protocol with also twice a week 500 UI HCG (full vial) on the T shot day.
Strange, but I'm feeling worse. Already low libido become even worse, no morning wood, and the only noticeable benefit - better focus, alertness, mood, less confusion - is also worsening.
I am puzzled. It is very inconvenient to inject IM twice a week, that's why a shifted to abdominal SubQ. But it cannot be the cause.
Or maybe, it was coming anyway, the trend, and it's just coincided with the new protocol.

 

[madman]

10 days ago, began twice a week (125 mg T weekly total) protocol with also twice a week 500 UI HCG (full vial) on the T shot day.
Strange, but I'm feeling worse. Already low libido become even worse, no morning wood, and the only noticeable benefit - better focus, alertness, mood, less confusion - is also worsening.
I am puzzled. It is very inconvenient to inject IM twice a week, that's why a shifted to abdominal SubQ. But it cannot be the cause.
Or maybe, it was coming anyway, the trend, and it's just coincided with the new protocol.

10 days ago...............give it 6 weeks than have blood work done to see where your total t/free t/shbg/estradiol/dht and complete blood count which will also show your hemoglobin/hematocrit. It will take roughly 6 weeks before your testosterone levels stabilize than you can get your labs done to see how it is affecting your other hormones/blood chemistry. IM vs sub-q should not make a difference regarding absorption/effectiveness and if sub-q is easier/less invasive to you than IM stick with it!

 

[goga]

Here is my update.

Long story short:

Baseline (12 July 2017):

T - 11.71 nmol/l (range 8.64-29.0)

Free T - 12.96 pg/ml (15-50)

Estradiol - 26.77 pg/ml (11-43)

LH high, prolactin normal.

I had been injecting 125 mg T IM per week.



Results right before next injection were (5 August 2017):

T 4.26 ng/ml (3-8), I think its about 15 nmol/l


Free T 19 pg/ml

SHBG 28.8 nml/l (17-77).



And then I decided to amend my protocol and moved to: 60mg twice a week (120 mg weekly), abdominal SubQ.
I've been on this protocol for 6 weeks now. The last reading being:

T 4.69 ng/ml (Normal range 2.8 - 8)
Free T 18 pg/ml (Normal range 1 - 28.28).


As you can see, I have not improved result-wise. As for symptoms, the first TRT week was excellent (mental clarity), other than that, neither libido, nor mental/emotional side changed much. Moreover, anxiety is worse.

All the time I have been on a multi-ester T. I am struggling to get a single ester one. May split Nebido. It has expired a year ago, but may still work.

I did not have my E2 checked this time, as there is no sensitive E2 test here, and the regular one makes no sense.
Please, advise.

 

[madman]

Here is my update.

Long story short:

Baseline (12 July 2017):

T - 11.71 nmol/l (range 8.64-29.0)

Free T - 12.96 pg/ml (15-50)

Estradiol - 26.77 pg/ml (11-43)

LH high, prolactin normal.

I had been injecting 125 mg T IM per week.



Results right before next injection were (5 August 2017):

T 4.26 ng/ml (3-8), I think its about 15 nmol/l


Free T 19 pg/ml

SHBG 28.8 nml/l (17-77).



And then I decided to amend my protocol and moved to: 60mg twice a week (120 mg weekly), abdominal SubQ.
I've been on this protocol for 6 weeks now. The last reading being:

T 4.69 ng/ml (Normal range 2.8 - 8)
Free T 18 pg/ml (Normal range 1 - 28.28).


As you can see, I have not improved result-wise. As for symptoms, the first TRT week was excellent (mental clarity), other than that, neither libido, nor mental/emotional side changed much. Moreover, anxiety is worse.

All the time I have been on a multi-ester T. I am struggling to get a single ester one. May split Nebido. It has expired a year ago, but may still work.

I did not have my E2 checked this time, as there is no sensitive E2 test here, and the regular one makes no sense.
Please, advise.

Your total/free t were still in the lower end on previous protocol (125mg once weekly multi-ester) and what stands out is your shbg which is also in the lower end (more frequent injections would make sense) and e2 is irrelevant as it is the standard assay(tends to overestimate) and not the sensitive so your e2 may be low. You switched protocols ( 60mg every 3.5 days) and most recent labs your total/free t is still on the lower end and it would have been helpful to see if twice weekly injections had any effect on your shbg. As far as estradiol you did not have due to you stating standard assay is only available. I would say you still need a dosage increase but also that the multi ester may be affecting your overall total/free t numbers due to the pharmacokinetics of the various esters as I think you would achieve better total/free t numbers using a single ester (enanthate or cypionate) as the pharmacokinetics of a single ester would be more beneficial your testosterone levels and I think you could still try 60mg every 3.5 days with a single ester and achieve higher total/free t without increasing dose where as if you stick to using a multi-ester than you will need a dose increase or possibly switching to injecting more frequently than (2x/week) due to your shbg. I would try your best to get your hands on cypionate or enanthate.

 

[goga]

Your total/free t were still in the lower end on previous protocol (125mg once weekly multi-ester) and what stands out is your shbg which is also in the lower end (more frequent injections would make sense) and e2 is irrelevant as it is the standard assay(tends to overestimate) and not the sensitive so your e2 may be low. You switched protocols ( 60mg every 3.5 days) and most recent labs your total/free t is still on the lower end and it would have been helpful to see if twice weekly injections had any effect on your shbg. As far as estradiol you did not have due to you stating standard assay is only available. I would say you still need a dosage increase but also that the multi ester may be affecting your overall total/free t numbers due to the pharmacokinetics of the various esters as I think you would achieve better total/free t numbers using a single ester (enanthate or cypionate) as the pharmacokinetics of a single ester would be more beneficial your testosterone levels and I think you could still try 60mg every 3.5 days with a single ester and achieve higher total/free t without increasing dose where as if you stick to using a multi-ester than you will need a dose increase or possibly switching to injecting more frequently than (2x/week) due to your shbg. I would try your best to get your hands on cypionate or enanthate.

Do you have any idea why I'm feeling maybe even worse than pre-TRT?

 

[madman]

Do you have any idea why I'm feeling maybe even worse than pre-TRT?

Your total/free t are still need to come up and your shbg being in the lower end of the range may be playing a role as one would metabolize the testosterone quicker (you may need to go to a more frequent injection frequency with weekly dose spread out maybe M/W/F or every other day). Regarding estradiol it is hard to say as you are not able to get the sensitive assay .Also as you know the first 6 weeks is rough for many and you have been on trt for 12 weeks now and some take longer than others to adjust and find what overall test level they feel best at but as I stated your total/free t for a trough is still on the lower end and your shbg is also contributing to your poor testosterone levels.

 

[goga]

Your total/free t are still need to come up and your shbg being in the lower end of the range may be playing a role as one would metabolize the testosterone quicker (you may need to go to a more frequent injection frequency with weekly dose spread out maybe M/W/F or every other day). Regarding estradiol it is hard to say as you are not able to get the sensitive assay .Also as you know the first 6 weeks is rough for many and you have been on trt for 12 weeks now and some take longer than others to adjust and find what overall test level they feel best at but as I stated your total/free t for a trough is still on the lower end and your shbg is also contributing to your poor testosterone levels.

Do you think split Nebido would be worse than Enanthate?

 

[madman]

Do you think split Nebido would be worse than Enanthate?

Not necessarily as Nebido is a single ester (undecanoate which has a longer half life than enanthate) blood levels take longer to build up buts its main purpose of development is to provide patients with a longer acting ester that can be administered infrequently and deliver physiological levels of testosterone without major fluctuations (mind you most on trt inject single esters more frequently to soften the peaks/valleys and stabilize blood levels). Not aware of many people injecting Nebido frequently even though there are some that do.

http://www.eje-online.org/content/160/5/815.long
http://www.openaccessjournals.com/a...noate-for-parenteral-testosterone-therapy.pdf

 

[goga]

Not necessarily as Nebido is a single ester (undecanoate which has a longer half life than enanthate) blood levels take longer to build up buts its main purpose of development is to provide patients with a longer acting ester that can be administered infrequently and deliver physiological levels of testosterone without major fluctuations (mind you most on trt inject single esters more frequently to soften the peaks/valleys and stabilize blood levels). Not aware of many people injecting Nebido frequently even though there are some that do.

http://www.eje-online.org/content/160/5/815.long
http://www.openaccessjournals.com/a...noate-for-parenteral-testosterone-therapy.pdf

Nevertheless, how dangerous/undesirable is it to give it a try for a couple of weeks? To see/feel how it works. Before I get T E or T Cyp