Greetings, I recently got back on TRT . Prior to getting bon my test levels were at 350 rage. I went through defy medical . My hemo was high and markers were off . I had a surgery on my neck and had to get off meds . Been off since. Have been dieting loading weight but my labido is tanked. I just got these from . Now since my surgery I loss a lot of mass on my back and being that I have been trying to get fast start . I jumped on some tren at 200mg and test e for same ( yes not exactly trt) but only gonna be on for five weeks. Then resuming a conservative protocal. Based on my current labs and then I'll do another in four weeks. Any suggestions on what I should consider doing . I don't think I get best advise in my consults.
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madman
Super Moderator
This is a men's health/HRT forum and tren let alone any of the other AAS compounds abused for the sole purpose of muscle/strength enhancement play no part in HRT.
The only other compound that would most commonly be used would be therapeutic doses as in 50-100 mg ND/week for relief/improvement of joint/bone pain.
Even then you are wasting your time doing a 5 week stint as it will take 4-6 weeks to reach steady-state when using the medium acting esterified TC/TE and depending on the ester used for tren you would still need time to reach steady-state.
Top it off that you would never even need to throw in tren and could easily get away with using therapeutic doses of T 100-200 mg T/week to improve your recovery and to be honest here 200 mg T/week is overkill for the majority of men on T therapy.
Most men are injecting 100-200mg T/week whether once weekly or split into more frequent injections.
The majority of men can easily hit a healthy/high trough FT injecting 100-150 mg T/week especially when split into more frequent injections.
Even then it is rare most would need to go above 150 mg T/week.
Yes there will always be the outliers who may need the higher-end dose 200 mg T/week but it is far from common as in rare.
Many men can achieve stellar levels injecting 100 mg T/week especially when split into more frequent injections.
There are also some men who can achieve robust levels injecting <100 mg T/week especially when split into more frequent injections.
Bottom line here is if your goal is to speed up the recovery process and throw on a little muscle/increase strength 200 mg T/week for 10-12 weeks would be more than enough to give you that short-term boost then you can easily lower your dose 100-150 mg T/week range which would allow you to maintain a healthy/high trough FT long-term.
I appreciate the reply and input.i think I'm gonna take your suggestion and do the less is more route. I was prescribed an ai. Hcg and enclomphien.im not sure I should take all at once based on labs I uploaded. Should I stagger and introduce layer in .of so which to start with
madman
Super Moderator
A serm is not needed if you re going to be using exogenous T.
If you are going to go in high out the gate for 3 months then 200 mg T/week would be more than enough to give you that short-term edge but the downfall here seeing as your baseline hematocrit is high you are going to most likely end up pushing it close to or over the cutoff 54%.
No need to throw in an AI as your estradiol is already low and more importantly your TT/FT are absurdly low.
Did you test prolactin?
I would avoid the use of an AI especially when using therapeutic doses (100-200 mg T/week) because having healthy estradiol levels is critical especially when it comes to libido, erectile function let alone overall health especially long-term.
Throw in the beneficial effects when it comes to anabolism too.
As we very well know T s metabolites estradiol and DHT are needed in order to reap full beneficial effects of testosterone.
As I have stated numerous times on the forum over the years Ts metabolites estradiol and DHT are needed in healthy amounts to experience the full spectrum of testosterones beneficial effects on (cardiovascular health, brain health, libido, erectile function, bone health, tendon health, immune system, lipids, and body composition).
No need to throw in hCG off the hop unless you are dead set on minimizing/avoiding testicular shrinkage or maintaining fertility.
You have normal SHBG so chances are a whopping 200 mg T/week is going to have your trough FT very high and we are talking 7 days post-injection here but seeing as your goal it to gain some muscle and increase strength then the high-end dose short-term would allow you to take advantage of the anabolic benefits of T.
If you want to clip the peak--->trough and maintain more stable blood levels throughout the week then splitting your dose and injecting 100 mg T twice-weekly would be the way to go here.
Keep in mind when using the medium actin esterified TC/TE it will take 4-6 weeks to reach steady-state due to the PK.
Blood work should be done 6 weeks in once blood levels have stabilized and we always want to test at the true trough (lowest point) before your next injection.
Guided_by_Voices
Well-Known Member
What specifically are you trying to accomplish? What are your near-term issues and goals?
I appreciate you looking at my labs. I agree absurd low . Two years ago I was around 380 with out trt. 800-1200 on trt with enclomphien. My short term goal is gain some strength in my lower and upper back. Along with leg development .but over all I want to be as healthy as possible with good energy and great labido . My hemo is high . I missed that . I usually donate. Surprised it looks better since I had cpap and have been supplements . Good to know cause I really don't want to reck my health. Ai I agree estrogen is needed and it's nowhere near what I think 20-50 is what I was under impression is where people like to be . Again , I'm researching this out but I'm gonna make this a lifestyle not a temporary thing. So in six weeks I'll get labs. Labido is really been suffering . Occasionally use pr 141 and other but it's not the same as before. .i did not test prolactin . What labs should I ask for in six weeks
Near term need to stabilize my back traps rhomboid s the atrophy that took place after my neck surgery . I been one year no trt physical therapy and natural well tb 500 bpc 157 where used three months in. But main issue is really labido . As u can see from labs I'm tanked. And idk why last year I cam off slow and used enclomphien and was under trt. In four weeks It ll be six week in and I'll do labs and make my way to sustained health level. Alot of the neck discomfort after two weeks has already helped so I don't see the need to reck any more havoc on my body. . How should I tapper from high dose to the 200 mark. Suggested
madman
Super Moderator
Now since my surgery I loss a lot of mass on my back and being that I have been trying to get fast start . I jumped on some tren at 200mg and test e for same ( yes not exactly trt) but only gonna be on for five weeks. Then resuming a conservative protocal.
How should I tapper from high dose to the 200 mark?
Ditch the tren and just stick with the high-end dose of T 200 mg/week for 3 months which will most likely have your trough FT too high but the goal is to take full advantage of the anabolic properties then you will most likely need to back off 100-150 mg T/week for the long run which will easily allow you to achieve a healthy/high trough FT.
Keep in mind running too high. a trough/steady-state FT can be just as bad in many ways as too low a FT especially when it comes to libido/erectile function as you will be hammering the s**t out of your dopamine and CNS which can easily backfire on you especially in the long run.
Once you have been on 200 mg T only protocol for 6 week and blood levels have stabilized you will need to get your labs done for TT and more importantly FT, estradiol, SHBG and throw prolactin in there too.
Make sure to use the most accurate assays for TT/estradiol (LC-MS/MS) and FT (Equilibrium Dialysis)
Your cheapest option would be paying out of pocket and using Nelsons discounted labs which offers numerous panels as testing will be done through Quest Diagnostics.
I will post the links below for the most accurate assays for testing TT. FT and estradiol.
Also need to throw in the critical blood markers RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit which are going to take a big hit from the high dose of T.
Again your baseline hematocrit is already sitting at 50% due to your sleep apnea. as your TT/FT levels are already in the gutter.
Banging high doses of T let alone any AAS will drive it up further.
All that should really matter here is the dose one needs to achieve a healthy trough FT which will result in relief/improvement of low-T symptoms and overall well-being.
Yes symptom relief is what truly matters but when it comes to what FT level is needed one needs to keep in mind the overall goal would be to use the least amount in order to feel well while at the same time minimizing sides and keep blood markers healthy long-term.
For the majority of men on T therapy one can easily achieve a healthy/high trough FT injecting 100-150 mg T/week especially when split into more frequent injections.
FT <5 ng/dL would be considerd low.
FT 5-9 ng/dL would be considered the grey zone where some men may experience symptoms of low-T.
FT 10-15 ng/dL would be healthy.
FT 20-25 ng/dL would be high-end/high.
The majority of men will do well with a trough FT 15-25 ng/dL depending on the injection frequency.
Need to keep in mind that there is a big difference between one running a high-end/high trough FT 20-25 ng/dL injecting daily vs twice-weekly vs once weekly.
Also going to be a big difference in peak--->trough on said protocol!
Many tend to overlook this and gun for a high-end/high trough FT only to end up struggling with sides especilly in the long run.
If your diet/training program are on point you can still easily take advantage of the anabolic properties of T as you are always going to be well beyond your natty genetic set-point when using exogenous T.
You will always have a big advantage over a natty when using exogenous T even therapeutic doses this is a given!
There would never be no need to abuse T/AAS using high doses unless your sole purpose was to achieve that chemically enhanced look that one could never achieve let alone maintain natty.
It's a dead end road in the long-run when it comes to possibly jeopardizing your long-term health let alone would be a lifelong commitment if you plan on sporting/maintaining that fake build!
We are using exogenous T to treat hypogonadism and improve our overall health/well-being!.
The goal is to achieve a healthy trough FT level in order to achieve relief/improvement of low-T symptoms, minimize/avoid sides and more importantly maintain healthy blood markers long-term.
Key here being long-term!
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