rouzier: maintain 2000 ng/dl at all times

[at15]

This is insane, is this what we are doing now ? Where are all these men in their 70's, 80's, 90's walking around with 2000 ng/dl ??

1:03:40

 

[captain]

Interesting part about DHT saturation and hair. This would make you wonder if you should use Nizoral or you shouldn't.

 

[Airborne Warrior]

At 2000 ng/dl I think my blood would turn to treacle and my prostate explode.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I don't want to watch the whole thing. At what minute/second did he say that? Thanks

 

[Systemlord]

You're completely missing the point, these older men have more androgen resistance at the cellular level (17:35), that's why Dr. Rouzier runs them at higher levels.

 

[S1W]

Interesting part about DHT saturation and hair. This would make you wonder if you should use Nizoral or you shouldn't.

Could you elaborate on what he said and your thoughts on Nizoral? I must have missed that part.

 

[Vince Carter]

Technically as we measure in the trough that tiny snapshot at your lowest point, you're probably atleast @ supra-levels on the upswing as it peaks if not approaching ~2000ng/dl as it is. Now if he says 2000, in a trough, well that would be a real eye opener.

 

[Sean Mosher]

Echo what SystemLord said...........it may take higher TotalT levels to dial those guys in and completely remove symptomology, especially if the doc is having to overcome a higher level of resistance.
The more I listen to docs and patients completely dialed in the less I worry about what the numbers say.
They are interesting in and of themselves to learn from but we clearly have an unhealthy obsession with numbers on a page, which don't always equate to an optimally healthy living breathing individual.
And we all know by now that those ranges are and have been on the downslide as they reflect the slide in testosterone of the population.

But I would also like to hear at what point in the presentation he said that if you remember AT15 and what the context was.

 

[captain]

Around 1hr 15 min about prostate and hair DHT saturation. He is saying you reach DHT saturation and increasing T dose increasing DHT more will not increase hair loss more because its already DHT saturated. If we are at this point would we be wanting to use Nizoral?

 

[maxadvance]

The time is posted on the op's first post, 1"03"40

 

[lemonflavor]

this is 1:03:40. You can do this with the Share link. But see 1:05:33 for him justifying the 2000 level.

 

[JimBob]

Echo what SystemLord said...........it may take higher TotalT levels to dial those guys in and completely remove symptomology, especially if the doc is having to overcome a higher level of resistance.
The more I listen to docs and patients completely dialed in the less I worry about what the numbers say.
They are interesting in and of themselves to learn from but we clearly have an unhealthy obsession with numbers on a page, which don't always equate to an optimally healthy living breathing individual.
And we all know by now that those ranges are and have been on the downslide as they reflect the slide in testosterone of the population.

But I would also like to hear at what point in the presentation he said that if you remember AT15 and what the context was.

Funny, you sound a lot like Dr. Nichols!

 

[S1W]

It's a whole lot of common sense imo. Not trying to weigh in to say one way is correct or not, but I'm going with the regimen that makes me feel best and shows to not be damaging based on blood work. It's not about the numbers, just the symptoms and quality of life.

Others can be most conservative and aim for a number on a chart that is likely what a normal 18 year kid has. Nothing wrong with that. It's a more conservative approach.

Neither is right or wrong because the evidence does not exist to prove it, but the hysteria over a number such as 2k TT is just plain laughable. Way too caught up in forum collective on here and other sites. There's not really a reason to think that number is a problem for anyone. Sure some people may get HCT out of hand or BP. I know I would not, as I'm pretty sure I've seen a peek that high when my trough was 1300.

There are bodybuilders out there running 500/wk for decades, and they run all kinds of other AAS on top in cycles. I've seen some of them post bloodwork better than many of us on TRT in some cases. Doesn't mean it's a good idea, but sure makes me wonder about some claims of dangerous lab numbers I always hear about on here and other forums.

Great post. Agreed.

Numbers can serve as a handrail - a highly individualized handrail. The more I learn about this, the more I realize that other people's numbers might have no meaning in terms of how I might feel with the same numbers. It's interesting to contrast and compare other people's labs and how they say they are feeling, but the more I look for patterns, the more clear it is that there do not appear to be many absolutes.

Within reason of course, we should be careful to not let the tail wag the dog.

We often hear guys say things like "treat symptoms, not numbers" but then do the exact opposite. I admit that my numbers have at times caused me some concern, even when I'm feeling great, because hey the lab range says ___ .

 

[Vince Carter]

You would have to wonder the liability of a Dr that would run you at doses just say over 1500 for this conversation, you would think in a litigious society that that could be termed as malpractice.

 

[Vince Carter]

I usually think that a guy's SHBG pretty well negates the half-life.

 

[at15]

I don't want to watch the whole thing. At what minute/second did he say that? Thanks

1:05:34

"if you use a transdermal cream your level will be 2000 everyday, which is my perference of choice."

 

[Deleted member 16042]

Whether from high HCT and or E2 (and they were high), I WAS symptomatic at 1500, felt awful, bloated, Systolic BP was up 20-30 points, felt like I was going to explode exercising etc. 2000 is nonsense to me.

 

[equel]

It's a whole lot of common sense imo. Not trying to weigh in to say one way is correct or not, but I'm going with the regimen that makes me feel best and shows to not be damaging based on blood work. It's not about the numbers, just the symptoms and quality of life.

Others can be most conservative and aim for a number on a chart that is likely what a normal 18 year kid has. Nothing wrong with that. It's a more conservative approach.

Neither is right or wrong because the evidence does not exist to prove it, but the hysteria over a number such as 2k TT is just plain laughable. Way too caught up in forum collective on here and other sites. There's not really a reason to think that number is a problem for anyone. Sure some people may get HCT out of hand or BP. I know I would not, as I'm pretty sure I've seen a peek that high when my trough was 1300.

There are bodybuilders out there running 500/wk for decades, and they run all kinds of other AAS on top in cycles. I've seen some of them post bloodwork better than many of us on TRT in some cases. Doesn't mean it's a good idea, but sure makes me wonder about some claims of dangerous lab numbers I always hear about on here and other forums.

This is so true, my friends uncle have been running 500-1g a week for like 20 years or some shit, thats his "cruise dosage", then he adds other shit on cycles, he is super healthy and blood is perfect.

 

[Vince Carter]

"Super healthy and blood is perfect"...that's what he says. Not doubting but a very questionable response.

 

[captain]

You would have to wonder the liability of a Dr that would run you at doses just say over 1500 for this conversation, you would think in a litigious society that that could be termed as malpractice.

I think he is saying if you don't test the level no one will know it's that high. If you need a level you can test at a time that fits your need. There is no restrictions on time you test levels. The space between two numbers is a restriction not a treatment plan. The blood level does not reflect what is happening at the cellular level. Asking why did they test E2 and he never got the response he was after. They should have said the patient had symptoms but they was just testing because they think they should. I think he was over inflating his numbers trying to make a point. He is teaching them how to bend the rules.